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Spoiler Common Theory Breakdown: One or More Ganons?

How many Ganon's do YOU think there are?

  • One

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Two

    Votes: 1 100.0%
  • Three

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • More than three

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    1
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
Location
Inverness/St Andrews , UK
Simon: Sealing where exacty? Can the same be said for the flute bot in LttP? Because neither means of death have looked anything like any sealing I've seen in the past. Perhaps I've missed something?

Not sealing in a particular place as is the Zelda norm. More an imrisoning within his own body. Like Han Solo in the second Star Wars.
 

Pinecove

Last Chance
Joined
Feb 7, 2009
Location
Toronto Ontario
Well, this was one of the biggest talking points in the thread that date a while back. Whether or not Ganondorf died at the end of TP was one of the major points; I may recycle a few arguments. But first, what do you have that suggests that FSA Ganondorf is a different Ganondorf from OoT Ganondorf? If he is not OoT Ganondorf, why is it that he has such ease finding the Sacred Realm, and subsequently, the Golden Power, during the Seal War? FSA Ganondorf had no such experience, whereas OoT Ganondorf had been plotting about it. These arguments cohere to my placements, though, so let's talk about your placements.

First off, Ganondorf NEVER has ease finding the sacred realm in the seal war. The manual itself states that it was completely by accident that Ganondorf found the Sacred Realm. (and further, that depends on what your definition of the seal war is as the seal war isn't really one event but a series of legends that get mixed up, starting with OoT.) Secondly, Ganondorf is assumed to be a weakling in FSA by the Gerudo tribe - they say he will die crossing the desert. This does NOT sound like the kind of thing a tribe would say about a great leader they had in OoT.

"Hey you know that amazing Gerudo Ganondorf, who (nearly) overthrew Hyrule and entered the Sacred Realm" [brackets depend on which timeline FSA is one.]
"Yeah what about him?"
"I bet he's gonna die in the desert. What a weakling."

What I find odd, Pinecove, is that you place the FS Saga on the AT, when you assert that Ganondorf dies at the end of TP; isn't one of the supporting pieces of evidence for FSA Ganondorf being different from OoT Ganon that that Ganondorf is supposedly "dead" from another game, necessitating another one? The case for it being a different Ganondorf in FSA if you place it on the AT as you have is certainly stronger, because Ganondorf's death in TWW is more "confirmed" than the TP "death." What I'm curious of, though, is why there is a necessity for multiple Ganondorfs on the AT.

Er sorry...are you asking me why I place FSA on the adult timeline, or why I believe TP Ganondorf is dead? The necessity for multiple Ganondorfs on the adult timeline is simple - there is no possible way that Ganondorf from TWW could have survived. This logic bodes for TP Ganondorf, assuming he died as well (which is VERY strongly implied.)

EDIT:

I still don't see how he definitely dies in TWW. He turns to stone, which to me represents a sealing. If you use the argument that logically he must die because he has a sword in his head, then you have to say he dies at the end of TP aswell. I can easily see a scenario where Ganondorf is revived if the MS is removed from his head.

Bill Trinen confirmed that Ganondorf died at the end of TWW. The only reason he was turned to stone was to keep the game rating at E.
 

DuckNoises

Gone (Wind) Fishin'
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Location
Montreal, QC, Canada
Pinecove said:
"Hey you know that amazing Gerudo Ganondorf, who (nearly) overthrew Hyrule and entered the Sacred Realm" [brackets depend on which timeline FSA is one.]
"Yeah what about him?"
"I bet he's gonna die in the desert. What a weakling."
I understand you're paraphrasing, but I took a look through the FSA text dump and I can't find anything like what you've written here. The phrase "Sacred Realm" doesn't even appear once in the text dump. This would imply that Ganondorf's actions have long been forgotten, or that he never came close to conquering the Sacred Realm on the CT, which he does not (before ALttP) in my placement. It would make sense for Ganondorf to keep a low profile if he is the same Ganondorf, because of his past actions. This is the closest thing I could find to what you said:

Ganon... I've heard that
name before. No, wait...
It was Ganondorf...

But, no... That man was of
the Gerudo tribe.

I can't imagine these
creatures worshipping
some desert nomad.
Being called a nomad doesn't have much of a connotation of weakness; in this context, it implies that he is wandering and solitary. Take it from my perspective; if he is the same Ganondorf from eons ago, he can't possibly be very connected with the remaining Gerudo because he has been gone for so long. There is bound to be some disconnect.
Pinecove said:
Er sorry...are you asking me why I place FSA on the adult timeline, or why I believe TP Ganondorf is dead? The necessity for multiple Ganondorfs on the adult timeline is simple - there is no possible way that Ganondorf from TWW could have survived. This logic bodes for TP Ganondorf, assuming he died as well (which is VERY strongly implied.)
My question here was why you placed the FS Saga (most importantly, FSA) on the AT if you believe so strongly that Ganondorf also died at the end of TP. Him dying at the end of TP would supplement a placement of TMC-FS/FSA after TP; my question is, why you would bother to argue so vehemently for his death at the end of TP if it is of no use to your argument? I would think that it be more likely for you to argue the TP death if you're keen on multiple Ganons and placing it after TP.
 

Pinecove

Last Chance
Joined
Feb 7, 2009
Location
Toronto Ontario
I understand you're paraphrasing, but I took a look through the FSA text dump and I can't find anything like what you've written here. The phrase "Sacred Realm" doesn't even appear once in the text dump. This would imply that Ganondorf's actions have long been forgotten, or that he never came close to conquering the Sacred Realm on the CT, which he does not (before ALttP) in my placement. It would make sense for Ganondorf to keep a low profile if he is the same Ganondorf, because of his past actions. This is the closest thing I could find to what you said:

*snip*

Being called a nomad doesn't have much of a connotation of weakness; in this context, it implies that he is wandering and solitary. Take it from my perspective; if he is the same Ganondorf from eons ago, he can't possibly be very connected with the remaining Gerudo because he has been gone for so long. There is bound to be some disconnect.

Completely wrong quote. I'm talking about this one:

Yes, this Ganondorf you
speak of is a member of
the Gerudo.

But his intent is unknown to
me. He has flouted the law
and fled for the pyramid.

To reach the pyramid, one
must first pass the trial
of the Desert Temple.

The villain Ganondorf will
no doubt draw his last
breath failing this trial.

Why would the Gerudo doubt Ganondorf's ability to conquer the temple when he has (or almost has, once again depending on whether FSA is on the CT or AT) taken over Hyrule and the Sacred Realm?

My question here was why you placed the FS Saga (most importantly, FSA) on the AT if you believe so strongly that Ganondorf also died at the end of TP. Him dying at the end of TP would supplement a placement of TMC-FS/FSA after TP; my question is, why you would bother to argue so vehemently for his death at the end of TP if it is of no use to your argument? I would think that it be more likely for you to argue the TP death if you're keen on multiple Ganons and placing it after TP.

It's called I don't support unfound evidence from bad theories to support my own theory. I can't deny one fact just to keep my timeline happy. For the record, I don't place FSA on the adult timeline because of Ganondorf. I place it on the adult timeline due to its development process and the connections it shared at one point with Twilight Princess.
 

JuicieJ

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Why would the Gerudo doubt Ganondorf's ability to conquer the temple when he has (or almost has, once again depending on whether FSA is on the CT or AT) taken over Hyrule and the Sacred Realm?

Well, he wouldn't have previously taken over the Sacred Realm on the CT, now would he? If that is indeed where they were to go, then them doubting him would make perfect sense.
 

Pinecove

Last Chance
Joined
Feb 7, 2009
Location
Toronto Ontario
Well, he wouldn't have previously taken over the Sacred Realm on the CT, now would he? If that is indeed where they were to go, then them doubting him would make perfect sense.

On the child timeline, no he definitely did not take over the Sacred Realm (unless the ending of OoT shows Link returning to a time after Ganon obtained the Triforce which I do not believe is possible). HOWEVER, he did invade Hyrule on the child timeline. On he WAS recognized as a great leader, not as a boy who "grew twisted with each passing year."
 

JuicieJ

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On the child timeline, no he definitely did not take over the Sacred Realm (unless the ending of OoT shows Link returning to a time after Ganon obtained the Triforce which I do not believe is possible). HOWEVER, he did invade Hyrule on the child timeline. On he WAS recognized as a great leader, not as a boy who "grew twisted with each passing year."

I'm saying he would have become corrupted more and more over the years. He was more evil than any of the other Gerudo. The others followed because he was their King. Without seeing his true power, they wouldn't have thought he could conquer the pyramid. No one would have without seeing his power. He was just seen as an exceptional sorcerer. And he didn't actually invade Hyrule on the CT, he just came there and was ridden out before he could come to power. That definitely would have made him not seem as strong.
 

Pinecove

Last Chance
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Location
Toronto Ontario
I'm saying he would have become corrupted more and more over the years. He was more evil than any of the other Gerudo. The others followed because he was their King. Without seeing his true power, they wouldn't have thought he could conquer the pyramid. No one would have without seeing his power. He was just seen as an exceptional sorcerer. And he didn't actually invade Hyrule on the CT, he just came there and was ridden out before he could come to power. That definitely would have made him not seem as strong.

That's the thing though. The Gerudo said they saw this from Ganondorf's CHILDHOOD.
 

JuicieJ

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That's the thing though. The Gerudo said they saw this from Ganondorf's CHILDHOOD.

What do you mean? That they actually witnessed it? I highly doubt Ganondorf would be reincarnated. The only reason Link and Zelda aren't the same ones every time is because they are born again when evil is about to rise again, hence the Links in TP and ALttP. Why would Ganondorf need to be reincarnated? So Hyrule could once again be threatened? The only reason Ganondorf has ever been a threat more than once is because he came back, not because he was reborn. If it is the case that they witnessed him grow up, though, then it's actually further evidence for the FSS being a separate legend, as that would require it to take place not long after the child ending of OoT. Ganon being sealed in the Four Sword at the end of the game would be a direct contradiction to what happened in-between OoT/MM and TP, which was Ganondorf never rising to power, followed at some point by the "divine prank of the gods", and Ganondorf being sealed in the Twilight Realm. That would prompt it to come after TP, but that would require the "dark interlopers" and the Dark Tribe to be the same, which would have a direct contradiction in the game, as the Mirror of Twilight was broken at the end of TP. You see what I'm saying with all this? There's no accurate place for the FSS with the information given to us, so to fit it properly, things would have to be completely re-written and the games tossed out.
 

Pinecove

Last Chance
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Location
Toronto Ontario
Um...I think you just misinterpreted what I'm saying. Look:

Once every 100 years, a
special child is born unto
my people.

That child is destined to
be the mighty guardian of
the Gerudo and the desert.

But this child, its heart
grew twisted with every
passing year.

The child became a man
who hungered for power
at any price.

This tells us the Gerudo saw Ganondorf grow up from childhood. He was evil and not respected from childhood unlike Ganondorf from OoT. Also in OoT the Gerudo is said to be their king, not their guardian.
 

JuicieJ

SHOW ME YA MOVES!
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Um...I think you just misinterpreted what I'm saying. Look:



This tells us the Gerudo saw Ganondorf grow up from childhood. He was evil and not respected from childhood unlike Ganondorf from OoT. Also in OoT the Gerudo is said to be their king, not their guardian.

I don't see anywhere in there that says they actually witnessed it. The Gerudo woman is just talking about Ganondorf. It never says "We watched him grow more twisted" or even implies it. It very well may be the case, but that's not enough evidence to prove it. Seeing as how Ganon was around and probably wasn't sealed anywhere before hand, it's probably the case, but the quote itself doesn't prove it. And it never says that they didn't respect him. The Gerudo aren't exactly a nice race. They're ruthless. They wouldn't have cared if Ganondorf was evil or not. But going into that pyramid would have made them instantly consider him an outcast, as it was a forbidden place to all. Again, the FSS could be a separate legend. It's not just that it doesn't fit anywhere accurately, it's that there's evidence for it that goes along with that. I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying it's highly possible.
 

JuicieJ

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Looks like it was Zelda who said it, not the Red maiden, but:

"Ganon... this beast was once
of the Gerudo... Once human.
He was called Ganondorf!

King of Darkness, ancient
demon reborn.
The wielder
of the trident!!"

(bold emphasis added)

The King of Darkness is evidently an "ancient evil", which is to say, an evil from the past. That he is reborn furthers this idea that they are referring to the Ganondorf seen in Ocarina.

HOWEVER. Given that this Ganondorf has a radically different backstory - where the Gerudo claim he was a criminal for the majority of his life and was eventually exiled for entering the pyramid (compare to the Ocarina version of Ganondorf who was still revered among the Gerudo (they still call him the great Ganondorf in the adult time period) when he rose to power) - it stands to reason that this is a NEW Ganondorf, be it a reincarnation of the previous Ganondorf or a new individual all together, but either way, a new body, a new threat - not the same Ganondorf as in Ocarina of Time.

The "ancient demon reborn" would be referencing the original King of Darkness that wielded the Trident in ancient times. It was because of him that the Trident was sealed in the first place. He's "reborn" in that Ganon is the new King of Darkness.

And you say how he was looked down on. Well, they're all criminals, and they don't deny it, so calling him that wouldn't really be anything. They didn't honor him, however, because he violated their law. To not enter the pyramid. To not even enter it. He would have been looked down on from that point on. He wouldn't be held high anymore.



Message from Locke to other mods: Please excuse this double post; it was moved from a different thread.
 
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Garo

Boy Wonder
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Location
Behind you
The "ancient demon reborn" would be referencing the original King of Darkness that wielded the Trident in ancient times. It was because of him that the Trident was sealed in the first place. He's "reborn" in that Ganon is the new King of Darkness.

And you say how he was looked down on. Well, they're all criminals, and they don't deny it, so calling him that wouldn't really be anything. They didn't honor him, however, because he violated their law. To not enter the pyramid. To not even enter it. He would have been looked down on from that point on. He wouldn't be held high anymore.

Exactly, the Ganondorf in Four Swords Adventures was looked down upon. But the Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time was NOT looked down upon. It's a different origin story, because it's a different Ganondorf.
 

Garo

Boy Wonder
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You're still not understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying they wouldn't have looked down on him until after he stole the Trident.

Well, actually, the Gerudo in the game looked down on him far before that.

"But this child, its heart
grew twisted with every
passing year.

The child became a man
who hungered for power
at any price."

They observed him growing slowly more twisted and evil as he grew into adulthood. This is quite unlike the Ganondorf we know from Ocarina of Time - the Gerudo absolutely revered him, all the way up until his imprisonment in the Sacred Realm (and likely even after, though we're in no position to make that call). Thus, logic dictates that they aren't the same Ganon.
 

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