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Are Super Mario and LoZ in the same universe?

Are Super Mario and LoZ connected?

  • Yes

    Votes: 8 25.0%
  • No

    Votes: 24 75.0%

  • Total voters
    32
Joined
Jul 1, 2018
Location
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So, I was watching a video by a well-known Zelda Theorist on YouTube named Dr. Wily. He postulated that the Mushroom Kingdom and Hyrule could not only be in the same gaming universe but could be sister countries.

He used the example of games like Link's Awakening, Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons to address the canon of Mario enemies being present in LoZ games. The Chain Chomp seen in the Mario games is present in the aforementioned games, and Goombas also make an appearance. He did not count things like easter eggs and references, but actual in-game appearances of these character enemies.

I'm not going to say that I am in support of this Zelda theory, but I did find it interesting from a philosophical point of view. The only thing threading these two game worlds together are the elements of mysticism that are attached to both worlds.

Still, I think the undoing of Dr. Wily's theory is that LoZ and Super Mario have two different tones that could never mesh well, even in a crossover game. LoZ is mature and gritty, even the cartoony Wind Waker has serious elements to it, and perhaps the grittiest of the Mario games, Luigi's Mansion, was still too lighthearted to be considered mature. Another thing to mention is that LoZ, while indeed having anthropomorphic populations in the form of the Gorons, Zoras, Rito, the Oocca, and so on, also have an amass of human-like beings; the Hylians, the Sheikah, the Gerudo, and the Humans who are termed as Hyruleans, and yes, while Link in Twilight Princess is referred to as a human by the Gorons, he is actually a Hylian, and is not really human. Humans in LoZ are marked by having round ears while Hylians have pointy or sharp ears. While in the Mario games, the only humans to appear in-game are Professor E. Gadd, Mario and Luigi, Rosalina, Princess Peach, and Princess Daisy. Outside of these characters, the majority of the residents of the Mario universe are nonhuman. So, unless they are on different continents to each other, they would have to be parallel or alternate worlds to each other.

So, thoughts? I'll create a poll just to get votes on this, but I think most of you will vote against this theory, even if it's fun to ponder.
 
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
I watch Dr. Wily too ;). Basically, I think the original Mario games take place before OoT. Miyamoto said that SMB3 was a stage play, and what’s stopping it from being a Hylian stage play that was popular before the civil war? I think the ghosts Sharp and Flat may be the deceased actors for Mario and Luigi. The Mario Mask the Happy Mask Salesman is merchandise of the play. And I think Talon and Ingo may be fans. The Bowser Charm Malon and Talon have could also be another piece of merchandise.
 
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I voted no. Link's Awakening was a dream world anyway, and all the Mario nods felt merely like easter eggs and not a way to tie the lands together. Plus, aside from LA, I can't recall any other reference to Mario games aside from in OoT, but again, those were clearly easter eggs.

Yeah, Link's Awakening was a dream scenario and those events didn't actually take place. I think Dr. Wily took that into account but it's been a while since I've seen the video. The Mario enemies definitely appear in Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons though, and those aren't dream world scenarios.

On a separate note: where would Holodrum and Labrynna be in relation to Hyrule? Would they be amassed to the same continent or on different continents? As different kingdoms, they'd be their own nations, but would they be in different regions altogether?
 
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I know this thread is over a year old, but let me throw in some input on conversations I’ve had regarding the subject.

Contrary to popular belief, yes, I do think both world are connected- but not easily, and not how you’d think.

let me start off by saying no, I don’t believe they exist in the same universe, but rather, I think both universes my be lightly connected.

most of my speculation comes from Links Awakening.
It is not the ONLY game to feature Mario enemies (I think lakitu show up in Minish cap, and they may be others I’m not remembering), but it’s the only game to feature a specific npc, or at the very least, an apparition of him. I am of course referring to King Wart.

had it been ANY other Mario enemy I probably would’ve ignored it, but wart is special in this specific situation.
Links awakening takes place in the DREAM of the wind fish,
Super Mario bros 2 takes place in a realized DREAM world known as Subcon.
Subcon, while a dream, is still a tangible dimension. A dream dimension.
The idea of tangible dreams is not foreign to super Mario bros. The best example being Mario and Luigi dream team, where you get to explore dream worlds that are directly influenced by the real world around them.
they change and can be be manipulated, but are still tangible dimensions.

This is when everything started to click.

The nightmares plaguing the fish...where did they come from? The game basically says they infiltrated the wind fish’s dream.
That tells me they came from a greater dream world- a dream nexus of sorts.
This could explain wart- wart is from a dream world.
Link is in a dream world.
The Mario universe has ways of traversing the dream world.

AND...we can’t forget the Kirby enemies in links awakening.
Where does Kirby take place? That’s right. DREAM land.

All of this could just be a fun theme the developers wanted to use, but it could also be used to lightly tie all three universe together- Mario, Zelda, and Kirby.

There have been Zelda Easter eggs in Mario,
Mario Easter eggs in Zelda,
Mario Easter eggs in Kirby,
Kirby Easter eggs in Zelda,

Maybe they’re more than eater eggs. Maybe they all link the different series’ interwoven mysticism.
 

Spiritual Mask Salesman

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I know this thread is over a year old, but let me throw in some input on conversations I’ve had regarding the subject.

Contrary to popular belief, yes, I do think both world are connected- but not easily, and not how you’d think.

let me start off by saying no, I don’t believe they exist in the same universe, but rather, I think both universes my be lightly connected.

most of my speculation comes from Links Awakening.
It is not the ONLY game to feature Mario enemies (I think lakitu show up in Minish cap, and they may be others I’m not remembering), but it’s the only game to feature a specific npc, or at the very least, an apparition of him. I am of course referring to King Wart.

had it been ANY other Mario enemy I probably would’ve ignored it, but wart is special in this specific situation.
Links awakening takes place in the DREAM of the wind fish,
Super Mario bros 2 takes place in a realized DREAM world known as Subcon.
Subcon, while a dream, is still a tangible dimension. A dream dimension.
The idea of tangible dreams is not foreign to super Mario bros. The best example being Mario and Luigi dream team, where you get to explore dream worlds that are directly influenced by the real world around them.
they change and can be be manipulated, but are still tangible dimensions.

This is when everything started to click.

The nightmares plaguing the fish...where did they come from? The game basically says they infiltrated the wind fish’s dream.
That tells me they came from a greater dream world- a dream nexus of sorts.
This could explain wart- wart is from a dream world.
Link is in a dream world.
The Mario universe has ways of traversing the dream world.

AND...we can’t forget the Kirby enemies in links awakening.
Where does Kirby take place? That’s right. DREAM land.

All of this could just be a fun theme the developers wanted to use, but it could also be used to lightly tie all three universe together- Mario, Zelda, and Kirby.

There have been Zelda Easter eggs in Mario,
Mario Easter eggs in Zelda,
Mario Easter eggs in Kirby,
Kirby Easter eggs in Zelda,

Maybe they’re more than eater eggs. Maybe they all link the different series’ interwoven mysticism.
The nightmares in LA probably came from Link, since they manifest as bosses he fought in the past. The whole game imo is an allegory of breaking out of a shell, to be less socially recluse.

I don't subscribe to Nintendo franchises being part of a connected universe, but it's an interesting theory.
 

AwdryFan1997

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I'd like to start by saying Dr. Wily plagiarises MarioWiki and so I didn't watch the video. (Lol, I'm listening to the MM7 soundtrack rn and just got the the Wily Castle songs, what a coincidence, also those songs are the best in the game, but anyways...)

The answer is yes... kinda. I mean, we see the two universes collide on various occasions outside of Smash (which is about a kid playing with toys, so it doesn't count in any discussion outside of very rare circumstances). Link's Awakening features various Mario characters, but that was all a dream... and so was Super Mario Bros. 2, so perhaps Koholint and Subcon are in some kind of connected dream dimension? Makes sense to me. The Mario series has never been very consistent with it's canon (which is why MarioWiki abandoned the concept of canon entirely), so perhaps Club Nintendo and similar occurrences wouldn't count in this discussion, but as mαrkαsscoρ said, Link appears in SMRPG, and he also appears in the Donkey Kong Country games. We also saw Link in Mario Kart, but that has its own discrepancies with the canon, with Baby Mario and Metal Mario and Pink Gold Peach and Baby Rosalina and so on, so forth. There's also Mario's various cameos in ALttP and OoT as a painting, but since those are set "three or four generations" apart, I don't see how there could be any connection, unless Mario has a time machine... oh wait...

I think connecting the Nintendo universes is a really interesting concept. I really like how minor references can sometimes imply some big connected universe sometimes. Like with Link and Samus in SMRPG, Samus in Kirby's Dream Land 3, Mario and other Nintendo stuff in Kirby Super Star, et cetera. But really, I don't care either way.
 

Jirohnagi

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The nightmares in LA probably came from Link, since they manifest as bosses he fought in the past. The whole game imo is an allegory of breaking out of a shell, to be less socially recluse.

I don't subscribe to Nintendo franchises being part of a connected universe, but it's an interesting theory.

Nightmares were there before Link, as stated by Dethl the goal was to keep the fish sleeping so they could have their own domain last forever, the Nightmares are the Wind Fishes, but theres nothing in the book about drawing inspiration from other sources, after all Link is out cold and so a valid target for dream eating as a drowzee would say. You see that more in how most of the Nightmares really don't corrospond to anything to do with Links prior adventure, only Dethl Imitates anything of Links and honestly i'd put it down as that being due to it literally being inside a magic whale fishs mind.

I'm kinda curious about what the Nightmares could represent though, because they seem kinda.......specific don't they.


IN regards to the Threads title. no they aren't connected, considering the amount of crap that happens between the two lands the opposite side would be wiped out, consider the great flood alone or the Calamity, both of those events would've extended much much farther than inteded just because of the "thermal bloom" effect by which i mean theres no way to control the outliers of the event. can't tell a flood "here and no more" even by divine intervention, magic can only hold off mother nature for so long, ditto time.

Zelda has a bit of a history of easter egging Mario, from portraits to lil buttons on ranchers dresses, theres even a kirby reference in Link's Awakening.
Theres not really a point in using easter eggs as connections between worlds or games just because they are acknowledged easter eggs by the devs.
 

Spiritual Mask Salesman

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only Dethl Imitates anything of Links and honestly i'd put it down as that being due to it literally being inside a magic whale fishs mind.
The final nightmare encounter has the nightmare morphing into various bosses Link saw, like Moldorm, Agahnim, Ganon, Lanmola, and like you said, Dethl. I forgot about it being implied during that encounter that they were already on the Island before Link arrived, but you are correct.

My interpretation is that they are just personifications of fears and doubts to keep the Wind Fish in his shell. The Wind Fish seems to be a powerful being that can warp reality around himself, so if he wakes up he can do great things. But the nightmares are keeping him down. I think it fits my view of the game being an allegory of someone grappling with being harmfully socially recluse when they are destined for something greater.
 

Jirohnagi

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The final nightmare encounter has the nightmare morphing into various bosses Link saw, like Moldorm, Agahnim, Ganon, Lanmola, and like you said, Dethl. I forgot about it being implied during that encounter that they were already on the Island before Link arrived, but you are correct.

My interpretation is that they are just personifications of fears and doubts to keep the Wind Fish in his shell. The Wind Fish seems to be a powerful being that can warp reality around himself, so if he wakes up he can do great things. But the nightmares are keeping him down. I think it fits my view of the game being an allegory of someone grappling with being harmfully socially recluse when they are destined for something greater.

The entirety of koholint is a dream so yes the fears and doubts and the other negative emotions all took the form of nightmares and monsters but and heres the important bit they only appeared when link intruded, which points to it all being formless initially or it being an idyllic dream maybe, it took something to crystalize and focus the nightmares, link was just the catalyst in the end.

The bigger bugger of this though is, did Dethl itself as the main nightmare exist before or after? Clearly there were some areas uninhabited by the folk of koholint so did the darkness spread from the egg or did it just pop up? I strongly think there was only one intial nightmare which was Dethl and when link appeared it used his fears and nightmares to create more.
 
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Spiritual Mask Salesman

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The bigger bugger of this though is, did Dethl itself as the main nightmare exist before or after? Clearly there were some areas uninhabited by the folk of koholint so did the darkness spread from the egg or did it just pop up? I strongly think there was only one intial nightmare which was Dethl and when link appeared it used his fears and nightmares to create more.
I think you're right on the money. Dethl would have been the original nightmare with not much to work with, because even if the residents of the Island existed before Link arrived, their purity as beings that aren't self-conscious of their own reality would leave him with nothing to work with. Then Link arrived who has the grime of reality, and Dethl used his mind to replicate other nightmares.

That does leave a tricky gap of how Dethl came into existence to begin with, but it's definitely implied he was there before Link. This is a stretch, but maybe the Wind Fish is only born from the egg figuratively in the dream. In reality he is just sleeping, so maybe Dethl is the manifestation of nightmares the Wind Fish was having because he's been awake before, and they grew a bit beyond him, forcing him to be caught in a perpetual dreaming state against his will.
 

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