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Breath of the Wild Do BotW's flaws show more clearly than other Zelda games?

Korok seeds, weapon durability, rain, four dungeons, crappy bosses and empty overworld...

Do you agree that it seems to be easier to point out BotW's flaws than it is with previous Zelda games given the new elements it brings to the table and the new design choices?
 

DarkestLink

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Yes. Mainly the overworld. Everything else can either be ignored or just feels weaker rather than awful. The overworld though? I've played this game 9 times and each new playthrough was almost entirely focused on me trying to figure out how to deal with the overworld and make it less tedious to get through. There's decent gameplay in BOTW, but it's buried under a massive mountain of crap.

Usually I find subsequent playthroughs to be more and more fun than the last but here, it feels more and more boring. I think I'll try playing again sometime next year, but first I'm going to watch a speedrun to see if I can pick up some methods even a casual like me can use to get through the overworld faster.
 

YIGAhim

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Yes. Mainly the overworld. Everything else can either be ignored or just feels weaker rather than awful. The overworld though? I've played this game 9 times and each new playthrough was almost entirely focused on me trying to figure out how to deal with the overworld and make it less tedious to get through. There's decent gameplay in BOTW, but it's buried under a massive mountain of crap.

Usually I find subsequent playthroughs to be more and more fun than the last but here, it feels more and more boring. I think I'll try playing again sometime next year, but first I'm going to watch a speedrun to see if I can pick up some methods even a casual like me can use to get through the overworld faster.
Fast Traveling. Boom.

I believe the flaws of BoTW show more than other games because of the wait we had for the game, and because of how it breaks the formula
 

DarkestLink

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Fast Traveling. Boom.

You can't fast travel until you've already visited the place...it's not like Skyrim where you can hire a horse cart if you don't feel like wasting a half hour getting to your destination.
 

Castle

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I'd say so, yeah. Because it so little resembles a Zelda game all the little differences and big changes just stand out more. It just looks like every other token cookie cutter Ubisoft open world game, complete with all the flaws of the standard cookie cutter Ubisoft open world game. You can't help noticing the similarities between BotW's shrines and towers and Ubisoft's obsession with base capturing and tower climbing to reveal portions of the map.

Anyone who has played a Zelda game will look at it and notice all the differences. Where are the dungeons? Where's the story? Where are the tools and items? What are all these identical shrines? Why is the map so freakishly big yet needlessly empty? Why is the gameplay so repetitive and seemingly driven solely by the motivation to acquire health and stamina upgrades?

Controversial gameplay additions like durability stand out in pretty stark contrast to the rest of the series. The Zelda series has never had all these weapons before. Collecting them has never been a factor. Having them constantly break is a new chore that Zelda players have never had to contend with before. The cooking system is also new and mostly works but it is also mostly pointless. I think it would have been a more welcome addition if it had come in a Zelda game that was more traditional, but given BotW's outlandish nature it stands out more like everything else in the game.
 

Vanessa28

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I think the flaws are more clear than other zelda games because basically there isn't a specific order to do everything. You can -if you want- go to the endboss in the first 30 minutes or so. The game has less dungeons and yes they have sidequests Shrines related or not Shrine related. And we only have a total of 4 dungeons. For everything else it's just sidequests and a lot...a HUGE lot of travelling. So it not only feels different but it is in a way different than what we're used to do in a zelda game. So the flaws are easier to spot. But that doesn't make it a less fun game. At least not for me. I still enjoy the game a lot.
 

Mikey the Moblin

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I'm gonna be that guy who just says the design flaws are more centralized/bigger than normal
Botw was highly experimental and I feel like by the time they could have gotten any kind of alpha feedback they were already far enough belong that they couldnt just "ok nix the weapons, 900 collectibles, mediocre search and find dungeons, they dont work". the design flaws are central to the identity of the game
I don't think any other Zelda game was ambitious as Botw ended up being and part of that comes with previous games being able to make changes much more easily
 

DarkestLink

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Well that's sort of the thing with trying something new...you're never going to get it right on the first try. Never. Even if it's a passable result, it can still be improved. That's kind of the Achilles Heel of Zelda, they're always adding in some new concept or gimmick that usually ends up hurting the game a bit because it's a sloppy first attempt. It wouldn't be so bad, except they never improve on these ideas. They try it once, it's not well executed, and then they never touch it again. Even when we get the occasional good gimmick (3 Day Schedule, Hidden Skills), they still don't bother to improve it. I can only assume it's because trying to compete with yourself is harder than just throwing out a new idea regardless of whether it's good or not. As much as I love Zelda, this is the series greatest flaw.

With BOTW, as if the series needed more pointless changes, Aonuma decided to take the series in the exact opposite direction of its roots, and even further from the direction he's been leading it down this whole time. Of course the game is going to be heavily flawed. They're trying and borrowing a lot of new ideas they know nothing about and don't get.

But I gotta say, for all the **** I give BOTW for its flaws, I have to give credit for the game being good at all. I mean this really is a recipe for disaster. You have Aonuma, a non-gamer who doesn't understand Open Worlds and has been working off a design philosophy that is the antithesis of Open Worlds now working on an Open World game. Not only does he barely understand anything about it, but he basically fired all of the veteran Zelda developer. Their replacements are not only new to Zelda, they're new to development. Looks like they're need help. Let's ask Monolith Soft, they've made some decent Open World games! ...Except they build linear Open World games with a huge emphasis on story. Aonuma was a non-linear Open World game that has little focus on story.

So let's recap.

-Our Producer doesn't know **** about an Open World game.
-Our team are noobs. And they definitely don't know much about Zelda.
-Our Producer can't explain the basic concepts of Zelda because he doesn't understand them either.
-Our Zelda veterans can't explain the basic concepts of Zelda because Aonuma gave them the boot.
-Our Director has worked on the series before...but the only 3D game he has experience with is Skyward ****ing Sword. So that's going to be our reference for an Open World game.
-Our assisting team, Monolith Soft, is working out of their element for this game.

By all rights, BOTW should be a flaming pile of ****. But it's not. The fact that it's a decent, albeit heavily flawed game is, in my opinion, an absolute miracle.
 
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Korok seeds, weapon durability, rain, four dungeons, crappy bosses and empty overworld...

Do you agree that it seems to be easier to point out BotW's flaws than it is with previous Zelda games given the new elements it brings to the table and the new design choices?
No. I disagree with you.

This is a simple case of some people do not like the new direction the Zelda series is taking. That's all. It's fine. Nothing is meant to please everyone.

"four dungeons, crappy bosses and empty overworld..."
That's the same as Majora's Mask and it didn't sell that well on N64 but the 3DS remake sold really well. People liked that game. So yeah game features liked yesterday, hated today. Hard to please some people.
 

DarkestLink

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"four dungeons, crappy bosses and empty overworld..."
That's the same as Majora's Mask and it didn't sell that well on N64 but the 3DS remake sold really well. People liked that game. So yeah game features liked yesterday, hated today. Hard to please some people.

Actually I'd say Majora's Mask is the only 3D title with a decent overworld. Did it have fewer dungeons than it should have? Yeah. But whereas BOTW's """"""dungeons"""""" are shorter than OoT's mini dungeons and don't play like dungeons at all, Majora's Mask set a new standard for the length of each game's dungeons and were, in general, significantly longer than OoT's.

That said, you are right that the main issue comes from them basically gutting the core gameplay of Zelda and replacing it. With that said, even if I judge it as an Open World, it's just not that impressive. Zelda's been my favorite series for two decades now, but if I heard BOTW2 was coming out along with TES6...I'm getting TES6. Maybe I'll get BOTW2 later? But I wouldn't be any more excited for it than the other dozen or so Open Worlds being released that year.
 
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misskitten

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Korok seeds, weapon durability, rain, four dungeons, crappy bosses and empty overworld...

Do you agree that it seems to be easier to point out BotW's flaws than it is with previous Zelda games given the new elements it brings to the table and the new design choices?

What one person sees as a flaw, another will appreciate. For instance, some people will praise the 3-day gimmick in MM, whilst for me it was just one more feature I couldn't stand in the game. So going through your list...

Korok seeds - yeah, the number is blown up too much, the tracking ability of the Korok Mask was hidden behind DLC, and I dislike that only about half the amount leads to anything useful - at the same time, this seems more like the norm with Zelda games with very few games actually doing collectables completely right (though before anyone says it, I do agree that with BotW being the newest game, they should have done better) - I can think of one instance where a Zelda game really did collectables right, and that was ALBW with maiamais. Up until the very last one you received something worthwhile for your effort. But most Zelda games tend to task you with collecting way too much of something and you either get a crappy reward for it, or it's practically useless by the time you actually manage to collect it (every single time I played OoT I couldn't be bothered to even try getting all Skulltulas).

Weapon durability - I get that some people hated it, and some people loved it (using it as an opportunity to do double damage). For me it just was a non-issue. It was never a struggle to fill up my inventory, in fact I more often struggled with deciding which weapon to drop to pick up the new one - so freeing up a slot or two actually became a good thing for me.

Rain - yes, this one I wholeheartedly agree with. Rain always was an annoyance, and was the only weather type I did not find any particular way to take advantage of, unlike for instance lighteningstorms where I could take advantage of nearby metal items to control it. I do wish they had thought out better ways to make rain a feature rather than an obstacle.

Four dungeons - I do wish the beasts had more meat to them and been more different from one another. But I don't find the amount to be a problem, not with the heaps of shrines out there, several of them long and intricate, giving me plenty of puzzles to solve. I do wish they had done fewer strength challenges, not done blessing shrines that could be found without completing a proper challenge, and made sure any shrines they had properly ramped up their core concept so that they didn't come off as way too quick and simple. There's definitely a lot of improvement that could have been done, but I really enjoyed a lot of it as well, so it's not a major issue for me.

Crappy bosses - If you're talking about the different Ganon incarnations, then I wholeheartedly agree with you. It would have been much more interesting if for instance we ended up fighting corrupted versions of the champions than just one more barely different version of the endgame boss. The overworld bosses, however, those I loved.

Empty overworld - this is where I'm going to disagree the most. I found the overworld of BotW to be the most engaging out of all the Zelda overworlds I have played. Even with the option to ride horses, I found myself constantly choosing to walk instead, as I kept wanting to stop and check something out, climb something, pick something up. Yes, a few areas here and there had less to do, but the vast majority was packed to the brim if you just bothered to look. I was constantly engaged when I explored, there was always something I wanted to do and pretty much every single time I got distracted on the way by something else. In my opinion the overworld was the best thing about the game, and what made it my favorite game of the series.
 

Mikey the Moblin

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Weapon durability-
It fights human nature. Introducing (horrendous levels of) durability create an awkward tension where you don't want to actually use your good weapons for fear that they'll break. Note this tension doesn't exist once you've gotten pro at Botw, at that point it's just a minmaxing fest which is still awful

The overworld isn't necessarily empty, it just takes too long to get anywhere relevant and once the novelty wears off it becomes overwhelmingly tedious. Finding cool stuff is awesome, but something can only be discovered once.

I think the divine beasts could have been traditional dungeons and done fine. The search and find checkpoint gameplay wasn't compelling enough to be significant.

The DLC actually made a huge impact on the healthiness of the game. Specifically, Trial of the Sword is what the entire game should have been, but at a lower difficulty, naturally.

Botw has glaring crippling design flaws and you can't chalk them up as opinion. They dropped the ball on both concept and execution on a lot of gameplay mechanics.
 

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