• Welcome to ZD Forums! You must create an account and log in to see and participate in the Shoutbox chat on this main index page.

Team Fortress 2: Mann vs. Machine

Status
Not open for further replies.

Pen

The game is on!
Kirion, you keep bringing up my "appeal to emotion", but even after your examples I still do not quite understand what you mean by it. Is this something new about me or is it an old part of my meta? Do you think you could help me understand better?

I've likewise pointed out earlier suspicions against Viral and Sadia. Next to that have I openly given my opinion about multiple other players, and never have I said that I know for sure you're scum or that you're the only one on my list right now that I don't trust.
If you then respond to me simply calling you out by appealing to emotion instead of bringing up proper arguments, obviously I would start trusting you less.

I never said that I was your only suspect or that it was wrong of you to vote for me. I merely asked you if I am the player who you would like to get lynched today. You have seemed unsure on that ever since I first asked. To me, whenever I vote for somebody, that means (unless is it clearly RVS) that the person I vote for is the person who I would lynch if I got to decide myself. To me that is what a vote means; to vote for the player you want to see dead at the end of the day. This is why I got a bit surprised to see you so unsure of the vote that you have on me. I suppose it is just our differences in how we perceive votes. I guess votes are more definitive to me. If I was as suspicious of someone as you seem to be of me, I would cast a FoS rather than an actual vote. But that is just me.

[care to enlighten me about what views and opinions, and which players?]

Oh I was only referring to the players who, like me, are voting for Storm currently.

[would you make this same statement had I called out someone else? Kind of the point of day 1 that you cannot yet fill an entire storage room with evidence. Being to sure of myself would certainly not be a good trait here]

Again, this just has to do with the different ways you and I see votes. Of course I would have made the same statement if I had noticed something similar with somebody else. And as I already said, I do not blame you for not being sure of yourself, it is the combination of a vote and the unknowing whether you really want me dead or not that bugs me a bit. I do understand you better now that I have seen our different opinions clearer though.

At the same time, you changed from never having mentioned me in any of your posts to heavily criticising my theories and throwing attacks back to me. Not a bad thing, criticise me please, but the change from never having mentioned me to making me look a tad suspicious seems like OMGUS to me.

Is such a change really noteworthy though? This is the first day of the game. To me this started out very lighthearted and jokingly, but then some role claims happened, and I was called out by you. I do not think that my course of action regarding change of attention is particularly strange. I think it is only natural for me to respond and interact with a player who is trying to communicate with me.

Theorizing without any logic.
Yah.
Strong words. But okay. It just came to my mind that as I think it's highly likely that there are no VT's in this game, and hence that everyone has "some sort of power role", he might've just misjudged the relevance of his role and isn't actually that important to us at all.

I agree with you on that this game is very likely Role Madness. But even still, your theory about Storm having a weaker PR holds no water at all. It is nothing but guess work on your side. This is why I pointed it out. You say yourself in this quote that "he [Storm] might've just misjudged the relevance of his role". It does not exactly strengthen your theory by using words like that. I think it is okay to make guesses and speculations, however you seem to be pushing this particular one way harder than any regular guess. Is there any reason for that?

And removing the doc, I would only consider the cop and vig as important town roles. All others can be helpful, but might not be special if all of us have such a role. Then specifically attempting to save his "important role" might be a waste of time.

I respect your opinion on that, but in my opinion all of the other roles that I mentioned in my post (Roleblocker, Tracker, Watcher and Jack-of-all-trades) are all extremely powerful and useful to whatever side they are on. The Tracker and Watcher roles were very useful to the Town's victory back in Pirates Mafia 2 for example, and I know from personal experience on both the Town's and the Mafia's side that the JOAT can be deadly. The most special and helpful role though, I would say is the RB. I dare even say it is the strongest Town role of all, right after the Cop. Much like the Doctor role, the Roleblocker is able to prevent night kills. That alone makes them an extremely valuable asset to their party. However, the Roleblocker can do more than just prevent night kills. It can prevent virtually anything as long as it knows where it is coming from. This makes for a much more reliable version of the Doctor (especially late game), and it can even prevent other things than just night kills. In Ace Attorney Mafia for example, I was the Mafia Roleblocker and in that game I roleblocked the Vigilante every single night, rendering that role completely useless for the entire game. Or in ZD Members Vs. Mods, as another example, where I was the Town Roleblocker. In that game, after I had managed to uncover Vergo as the Cult Leader I roleblocked him several times. So while I kept preventing the Cult from growing stronger at night, we were eliminating the Mafia through lynches during the day. Had it not been for that, the Town would have undoubtedly lost that game to both the Cult and the Mafia. So yeah, I think the Roleblocker deserves a lot more praise than it typically gets. It is very high up there. Right beneath the Cop in my opinion.

But I called it just a theory myself. Not a given fact. So please theorise otherwise. But using the strong wording as you did in most of your last posts to me, it doesn't turn into an open discussion, but also heavily debates my trustability. Based on what, just because I dared to consider you might not be town?

This had nothing at all to do with your suspicions on me. It is simply me pointing out that there is no actual base to your theory.
 
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Okay. When I said claiming was a bad idea, I meant it at Storm. This was before Malon declared his role. I wondered why he called Storm a liar without stating why he believed so. I didn't ask him to reveal his role though. I didn't think that he really had evidence, I assumed he was just trying to make Storm look bad. Since everyone agreed that roleclaiming was a bad idea, it seemed unlikely that he would give his out. It wasn't until page 6 that he roleclaimed. And this was after being pressured by Tristian, who questioned after Malon said he didn't want to give any evidence. Tristian was right though, why make a claim against Storm without evidence?

Nope, you said claiming was a bad idea after Malon already roleclaimed. I want to know what evidence other than roleclaiming Malon could have provided at that point - seeing as you asked him to back up that Storm was fakeclaiming, you must have had something in mind. Same goes for @Tristan by the way.

To be more clear, when I first read Malon's post saying that Storm was fake claiming, I was hoping he would just shut up and no one would notice, because it was clear as day to me that he was implying to be the real doctor. Speaking out like that was a mistake on his part, but pressure on him to back up his claims was what made him actually roleclaim in the first place. I want to know why you pressured him instead of leaving him alone, quietly taking note and hoping for the best.
 

HeroOfTime

Challenger Approaching!
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Location
Hyrule
Gender
Mail
I'm pretty sure Malon wanted the others to know he said it... I only asked if he could back it up. Tristian asked him to back it up. Issue of inexperience on my part, not sure why this makes me seem scummy though, but due apologies anyway. I obviously didn't put pressure on him, not enough for him to declare his role, as he said in reply to me. After he said he would wait, I left him alone. Tristian pressured him afterwards.
 
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
I'vestatedmanytimesthatIamalmostneverabletogetonlineSundaysorSaturdays.

I was voting for Storm at first because it was the majority. Then five pages in I actually started to believe it was him, but now I am starting to doubt it, and have no idea who the real mafia is. Guess just time and arguments will tell who is who. I'll revote later.

unvote
 

ectoBiologist

Still Fandom Trash
Joined
Jul 7, 2015
Location
Furthest Ring
Near 6 or 7 pages of posts I just read through. I read most of the posts save for the last page and a half, which I just skimmed for the interest of time. Seems li.ke Storm is as good as done, as people already seem to moving on the questioning each other. Personally, as much as I disagree with Storm's actions, he is most likely Town. No real reason, but I feel like this is just his playstyle, especially considering the last game I played with him. So, I'm not gonna vote today, unless I see someone outstandingly scummy.

I also am inclined to believe Malon is one of the Doctors. I don't see any reason for both Storm and him to lie about being the Red Medic, or whatever. Seems unlikely.

So who do you guys think should be lynched today if not Storm and Malon?

I don't believe anybody should be lynched today. Nobody has caught my eye yet. I think it's best to just leave it alone for Day 1, until we have some concrete evidence of one person or another.

Man, I can't keep up with all of these long, in-depth posts. I'll try to read through any posts in the coming irl days, but I won't post much until Day 2, when the discussions starts again and I can get my thoughts in before they get sandwiched between the big posts of Pendio and Soul and Kokirion.
 

Mellow Ezlo

Spoony Bard
Joined
Dec 2, 2012
Location
eh?
Gender
Slothkin
Nope, you said claiming was a bad idea after Malon already roleclaimed. I want to know what evidence other than roleclaiming Malon could have provided at that point - seeing as you asked him to back up that Storm was fakeclaiming, you must have had something in mind. Same goes for @Tristan by the way.
I would've preferred it if Malon hadn't revealed that Storm was lying in the first place. If Storm is mafia, then that's what he wants; if he's town, then it was stupid town play in his part. Regardless, Storm's actions exposed the real doctor. If I were in Malon's place, I would've left Storm alone and pretended to believe his claim, or written it off as a joke, until later in the game when it's a more opportune time. But since Malon brought up the fact that Storm was lying, regardless of how obvious it may have been, it was better for him to just go ahead and say it anyway.

By the way @HeroOfTime my name has only one 'I'. ^^

Anyway I'm going out for the night so I probably won't be able to respond again until tomorrow, just a heads up!
 
Joined
Feb 17, 2015
To be more clear, when I first read Malon's post saying that Storm was fake claiming, I was hoping he would just shut up and no one would notice, because it was clear as day to me that he was implying to be the real doctor. Speaking out like that was a mistake on his part, but pressure on him to back up his claims was what made him actually roleclaim in the first place. I want to know why you pressured him instead of leaving him alone, quietly taking note and hoping for the best.

Exactly. The fact that people kept asking Malon to clarify really upset things and kind of put us in this mess.

I'm thinking that Storm is the best option to lynch. But I don't think that means Malon for sure is the doctor. If there is some sort of cop like role, perhaps that person should use it on some other person, not Malon. If Storm was the doctor, then we lynch Malon the next day.

What do you guys think?
 
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
I'm pretty sure Malon wanted the others to know he said it... I only asked if he could back it up. Tristian asked him to back it up. Issue of inexperience on my part, not sure why this makes me seem scummy though, but due apologies anyway. I obviously didn't put pressure on him, not enough for him to declare his role, as he said in reply to me. After he said he would wait, I left him alone. Tristian pressured him afterwards.

Fair enough, I'll accept that for now.

Near 6 or 7 pages of posts I just read through. I read most of the posts save for the last page and a half, which I just skimmed for the interest of time. Seems li.ke Storm is as good as done, as people already seem to moving on the questioning each other. Personally, as much as I disagree with Storm's actions, he is most likely Town. No real reason, but I feel like this is just his playstyle, especially considering the last game I played with him. So, I'm not gonna vote today, unless I see someone outstandingly scummy.

I also am inclined to believe Malon is one of the Doctors. I don't see any reason for both Storm and him to lie about being the Red Medic, or whatever. Seems unlikely.



I don't believe anybody should be lynched today. Nobody has caught my eye yet. I think it's best to just leave it alone for Day 1, until we have some concrete evidence of one person or another.

Man, I can't keep up with all of these long, in-depth posts. I'll try to read through any posts in the coming irl days, but I won't post much until Day 2, when the discussions starts again and I can get my thoughts in before they get sandwiched between the big posts of Pendio and Soul and Kokirion.

I disagree. Not lynching anyone means we've got no chance of hitting scum, essentially giving the mafia free nightkill. The chance of hitting scum by lynching someone is obviously low, but it's higher than zero. If we can't come up with a suitable target, I'm all for a policy lynch, possibly just kicking an inactive player out of the game.

I would've preferred it if Malon hadn't revealed that Storm was lying in the first place. If Storm is mafia, then that's what he wants; if he's town, then it was stupid town play in his part. Regardless, Storm's actions exposed the real doctor. If I were in Malon's place, I would've left Storm alone and pretended to believe his claim, or written it off as a joke, until later in the game when it's a more opportune time. But since Malon brought up the fact that Storm was lying, regardless of how obvious it may have been, it was better for him to just go ahead and say it anyway.

By the way @HeroOfTime my name has only one 'I'. ^^

Anyway I'm going out for the night so I probably won't be able to respond again until tomorrow, just a heads up!

You've got a point. It's likely that the mafia would have come to the same conclusion as I have anyway, now that I think about it.

Exactly. The fact that people kept asking Malon to clarify really upset things and kind of put us in this mess.

I'm thinking that Storm is the best option to lynch. But I don't think that means Malon for sure is the doctor. If there is some sort of cop like role, perhaps that person should use it on some other person, not Malon. If Storm was the doctor, then we lynch Malon the next day.

What do you guys think?

What makes you think there can only be one doctor?
 
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
I'vestatedmanytimesthatIamalmostneverabletogetonlineSundaysorSaturdays.

I was voting for Storm at first because it was the majority. Then five pages in I actually started to believe it was him, but now I am starting to doubt it, and have no idea who the real mafia is. Guess just time and arguments will tell who is who. I'll revote later.

unvote

Not sure if you were replying to me, but I didn't know about your difficulties being online on the weekend. Keep in mind that I marked you just because you're one player who hasn't said much, and I wanted to generate discussion. No need to be defensive. ;)
 

HeroOfTime

Challenger Approaching!
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Location
Hyrule
Gender
Mail
What makes you think there can only be one doctor?

@Frozen Chosen I think it's very likely that there is a red and a blue doctor. TF2 has two different colored teams, and if they're working together in this mafia game, there's probably a medic for both colors. Though this isn't a 100% chance.
 

ectoBiologist

Still Fandom Trash
Joined
Jul 7, 2015
Location
Furthest Ring
I disagree. Not lynching anyone means we've got no chance of hitting scum, essentially giving the mafia free nightkill. The chance of hitting scum by lynching someone is obviously low, but it's higher than zero. If we can't come up with a suitable target, I'm all for a policy lynch, possibly just kicking an inactive player out of the game.

I see your point, but like you said, the chances of hitting scum is very low, and we most likely will hit Town, effectively giving Mafia two free kills on the first Day/Night cycle. Don't know about you, but I don't think that's a good strategy. I'd rather give them one free Night kill than take a risky chance that will almost certainly give them two.

Seems like no one agrees though, so I'm okay leaving the rest of the Town to it's own devices, for now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom