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Team Fortress 2: Mann vs. Machine

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Well, the way I see it we cannot know for sure which strategy is the better one, since I think it all depends on who the Mafia is and how they play. Doing it the way Kirion suggests will certainly cover more ground. It would cause some Mafia members to wanna go after Malon, but other Mafia members would look elsewhere since it would be a batter chance there. Your suggestion, Soul, is guaranteed to keep Malon safe for the night (unless the Mafia has a Strongman of course), however, with this strategy, the Mafia is also much more likely to be able to go through with their night kill since they will most likely kill someone other than Malon (in other words someone who has a very low chance of being protected). So yeah, from what I can see it ultimately depends on the Mafia which plan is better, so we cannot know for sure. This is why I suggest that the Doctor decide how to do it since none of the tactics is necessarily bad.

The mafia will get a nightkill anyway, wether it's Malon or someone else and I don't see the point in trying to deny them one. If we keep Malon safe, however, we can be sure to deny them a doctor kill for the night which... won't get us anywhere now that I think about it. I'm pretty sure Malon said that he could protect on even nights only, though I can't seem to find the post at the moment. Maybe @Malon himself can clarify. If that is the case, the hidden doctor would basically protect a townie who can't do anything at night, and on Night 2, the hidden doctor can't protect him and thus Malon will die that night without being able to use his power this game.

Since that's the case, I agree with you that the hidden doctor should decide for themselves who to protect on Night One, without telling any of us. I don't see us being able to save Malon, unfortunately. What are your thoughts, @kokirion?
 

Johnny Sooshi

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And from how it feels theres going to be several AFK Modkills, so im going to ignore the 3 or 4 of us who might get killed for not posting enough.

Modkills don't start til day 2. Read Deku's intro.

Since that's the case, I agree with you that the hidden doctor should decide for themselves who to protect on Night One, without telling any of us. I don't see us being able to save Malon, unfortunately. What are your thoughts, @kokirion?

I still don't agree that our supposed second doctor shouldn't save Malon. If they didn't, then I'd rather see a possible town JOAT do the protect instead. If we can keep multiple doctors alive it would be extremely beneficial.
 
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I still don't agree that our supposed second doctor shouldn't save Malon. If they didn't, then I'd rather see a possible town JOAT do the protect instead. If we can keep multiple doctors alive it would be extremely beneficial.

How so? As I reasoned, Malon won't survive past Day Two, and is unable to use his power on Night One. How is keeping him alive of any use to us?
 
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If we have one, he could protect Malon on Night Two, allowing him to use his ability. The hidden doctor could then protect on Night Three again, and so on. In that case, keeping Malon alive absolutely does make sense. The problem is that we don't know wether there is one or not. We might just give it a try though.
 

kokirion

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Since that's the case, I agree with you that the hidden doctor should decide for themselves who to protect on Night One, without telling any of us. I don't see us being able to save Malon, unfortunately. What are your thoughts, @kokirion?
I think it's mostly just a matter of taste.
Letting the doc decide gives him basically 2 options (malon or someone else) so technically still 50% chance.
But what I do not like about that situation is that we pose the doc for a difficult decision. Protecting Malon whereas due to the risk there's a good chance the mafia is not gonna target him anyway, or protect someone else while risking Malon's life? Agreeing on just flipping a coin takes that choice away. I could very well imagine that the doc would feel obligated to protect Malon every night for example. Now the same might happen, but we remove the wifom. Instead of the mafia thinking through what kind of person he is, they just know their chances and can decide on that.
But of course, there's no difference between letting him choose and tossing a coin. I prefer the latter because a professor of risk management once told me that when in conflict with the other, to avoid a collision, drive right towards the other and break off the handlebar. If the opponent knows you have no choice they won't attempt to make you steer away, and will instead take no chance themselves.
I like tossing a coin because we then place it out of our hands and put the mafia in a tough decision.
 

kokirion

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But most of my goal here has already been reached. Pointing out that there most likely is a second doc able to protect Malon should already do most of the trick. That info just had to be shared with the mafia. The rest is pretty much irrelevant
 
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I think it's mostly just a matter of taste.
Letting the doc decide gives him basically 2 options (malon or someone else) so technically still 50% chance.
But what I do not like about that situation is that we pose the doc for a difficult decision. Protecting Malon whereas due to the risk there's a good chance the mafia is not gonna target him anyway, or protect someone else while risking Malon's life? Agreeing on just flipping a coin takes that choice away. I could very well imagine that the doc would feel obligated to protect Malon every night for example. Now the same might happen, but we remove the wifom. Instead of the mafia thinking through what kind of person he is, they just know their chances and can decide on that.
But of course, there's no difference between letting him choose and tossing a coin. I prefer the latter because a professor of risk management once told me that when in conflict with the other, to avoid a collision, drive right towards the other and break off the handlebar. If the opponent knows you have no choice they won't attempt to make you steer away, and will instead take no chance themselves.
I like tossing a coin because we then place it out of our hands and put the mafia in a tough decision.
I must say, I like the way you're thinking. Are you sure you aren't overlooking something, though?
 

Johnny Sooshi

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I mean we are on the assumption that this is a Role Madness game based on what's been stated by people already. That's why I'm assuming a town JOAT.

So who do you guys think should be lynched today if not Storm and Malon?
 
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I mean we are on the assumption that this is a Role Madness game based on what's been stated by people already. That's why I'm assuming a town JOAT.

So who do you guys think should be lynched today if not Storm and Malon?
Yeah, I definitely see your point. I didn't know about the Jack of all Trades role before. I just read up on it after googling the acronym. As for who to lynch? One of my strongest suspects is HeroOfTime, but I want to wait for his response to my question before I start a lynch bandwagon on him. If I decide he's a lynch candidate at all, that is.
 

kokirion

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@Pendio , to respond to your posts.

You're heavily appealing to emotion. I don't like that. I'm merely stating suspicions, fair or not fair, and I'm rather flexible about it.

I've likewise pointed out earlier suspicions against Viral and Sadia. Next to that have I openly given my opinion about multiple other players, and never have I said that I know for sure you're scum or that you're the only one on my list right now that I don't trust.
If you then respond to me simply calling you out by appealing to emotion instead of bringing up proper arguments, obviously I would start trusting you less.

Let me quote some parts that appeal to emotion, specifically the bolded parts.

To be fair I have not really played Mafia in a year. I am still kind of getting into it again[true. I get that. For me it's actually been more than 2 years. So perhaps likewise allow me to make here and there a small mistake when trying to figure it out again. Not really a reason to avoid discussions about yourself, though]. Besides, it is still just day 1. And I think I am able to keep my calm pretty well.

Oh and by the way, Kirion, am I honestly the one player in this game that you the most desperately want to see dead? Judging by your vote, it would seem so. I just want to be sure.

Oh and one more thing, Kirion, you never answered one of my questions from earlier. Am I seriously the one player you'd most like to see dead at the end of this day?

As far as I can tell there are several other players who share my views and opinions on what is going on [care to enlighten me about what views and opinions, and which players?]. So why the vote on me specifically? You do not even seem all that sure about your vote.[would you make this same statement had I called out someone else? Kind of the point of day 1 that you cannot yet fill an entire storage room with evidence. Being to sure of myself would certainly not be a good trait here] I figured that since you are voting for me, you would rather want me dead than any of the other players. However, you have yet to confirm that.

And regarding me posting at night (night our time zone), it is simply because I like staying up at night a lot and I do most of my sleeping when the sun is up. In fact, I am just about to go to bed now. I will be back here when I wake up.[I never questioned that, or found that scummy]

At the same time, you changed from never having mentioned me in any of your posts to heavily criticising my theories and throwing attacks back to me. Not a bad thing, criticise me please, but the change from never having mentioned me to making me look a tad suspicious seems like OMGUS to me.
For example:

Oh wow, you still seem to be so set on Storm being innocent. You do not even seem to consider the fact that he might be Mafia. Judging by the way he plays there is no chance I am removing my vote. He plays extremely scummy. Even you should not be able to deny that. Fake claiming Doctor? Seriously? And you still blindly seem to believe he is definitely Town? Of course he could be Town, but there is a very good chance he is scum too. No matter what he is, I believe that a Storm lynch today would be for the best. And should Storm die and flip scum, then I will very strongly be on your case tomorrow, Kirion.
I never said it wasn't possible that he is mafia. I've always been rather nuanced about that. Yet, for reasons I explained multiple times, I think/thought it was more likely that he is town. Saying that I blindly believe he's town, that I don't even consider it etc. is a grieve overstatement. And then especially the last sentence, that all eyes would be on me if he flips scum tomorrow. A ridiculous statement, and great attempt to make me look less reliable.

This here is a brilliant point against Kirion's suggestion. The Mafia Roleblocker is an extremely common role to have in a Mafia group. And I also agree with many other things that Soul has had to say.

There are plenty of other possibilities for a powerful role that Storm could be having. Vigilante, Cop, Roleblocker, Tracker, Watcher and Jack-of-all-trades are just s a few examples. I still do not think your reasoning makes any sense. It feels like you are just theorizing without any logic.
Theorizing without any logic.
Yah.
Strong words. But okay. It just came to my mind that as I think it's highly likely that there are no VT's in this game, and hence that everyone has "some sort of power role", he might've just misjudged the relevance of his role and isn't actually that important to us at all. And removing the doc, I would only consider the cop and vig as important town roles. All others can be helpful, but might not be special if all of us have such a role. Then specifically attempting to save his "important role" might be a waste of time.
But I called it just a theory myself. Not a given fact. So please theorise otherwise. But using the strong wording as you did in most of your last posts to me, it doesn't turn into an open discussion, but also heavily debates my trustability. Based on what, just because I dared to consider you might not be town?

Now, to the question of whether I really think you're scum or not. I don't know, really. I heavily dislike appeal to emotion, and felt I needed to point that out, and it is scummy, but not necessarily. What I further dislike about your defense is that you pretty much pressure me to either go full in, or to back down completely. It's day 1, and I'm not confident enough about you being scum to dedicate the next 5 pages of this game about discussing that. That would force me to look for arguments to support my case which are not really there, and so to take them out of their context to make them suit my case. Backing down whereas you're still one of my best leads so far is equally disappealing.
You did the same in Radiant Historia Mafia. I backed down then, and a few turn later when you got nightkilled it turned out you were indeed scum. I don't want to make the same mistake. Yet, going all in when I'm not even sure yet if at the end of the day I really want you to be the one to be lynched is also stupid. I'm carefully gonna think this through.
 
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