Hard = Hate?

[AncientPoe]

Bad hard is just more damage...

Would you agree though, that there is a threshold for this? Because there have been many times where I've played a Zelda game, and taken a massive hit, and actually enjoyed it somewhat. I felt like a character in the movies, who wipes the blood from his lip with a thumb and then says in a gravelly voice "alright, so you've got some fight in you. Bring it." Best example, original cartridge OoT Iron Knuckle. He does 6 hearts of damage to you as young link. But at that point in the game, you've likely got between 12 and 16 hearts, along with other resources like fairies, milk or potions. The high damage gives you a full account of the stakes involved in the fight. On the flip side of that, I've played Zelda games where an enemy hit me and still only did about a half a heart of damage, and that was mid to late game. In ALBW I found myself actually standing still to take more than one hit from them, mostly out of pity really. It's laughable, and it makes you feel like the dungeon is coming at you with a rubber knife, and utterly ruins any tension.

I think that the best kind of difficulty comes when a designer is aware of the type of difficulty they're trying to achieve in a particular game, dungeon or scene. Zelda games just tend to be a bit more difficult to work with, because they tend to emphasize different kinds of difficulty from dungeon to dungeon (at least the best ones in the franchise do, anyway).

 

[Azure Sage]

You have to ask why that something is hard, in my opinion. Is it hard because it's a well-designed challenge? Or is it hard because it's tedious BS with annoying mechanics? I don't doubt at all that there are people who say they want a challenge and then whine when they can't beat something. There are plenty of times when it's one's own lack of skill that makes something harder, but there are also plenty of times when that particular part is just a ***** to play through.

 

[AncientPoe]

There are plenty of times when it's one's own lack of skill that makes something harder, but there are also plenty of times when that particular part is just a ***** to play through.

Heh… I feel like this line applies equally to Hyrule Warriors.

 

[Curmudgeon]

maybe it's the NES kid in me, but I'm completely ok with games establishing the threshold of "sorry, champ. you're not good enough for this." i want to be pushed. easy games are like $60 participation ribbons. if i don't feel like i've been punched in the mouth, i'm not having a good time.

 

[A Link In Time]

I need to locate the source, but I once saw a quote from a game developer that said new devs want to implement complex areas in games before having thought of the more open game play possibilities that present themselves when starting simpler. For example, starting off with a grassy area and adding hazards later is better game design than starting with a poisonous area and adding few subsequent land masses.

Super Mario Bros. is arguably the best demonstration of how to to game difficulty right. Level 1-1 is the template for how all tutorials should be constructed. Games should teach their mechanics through early gameplay, while later challenges require more advanced maneuvers and some trial and error.

A Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time, and A Link Between Worlds have a thoughtfully created early game. They nudge players into the world with some basic combat and puzzles before removing the training wheels and allowing players to think for themselves.

This kind of difficulty is fair and rewarding, giving players a sense of learning and achievement throughout a game.

 

[AncientPoe]

I need to locate the source, but I once saw a quote from a game developer that said new devs want to implement complex areas in games before having thought of the more open game play possibilities that present themselves when starting simpler. For example, starting off with a grassy area and adding hazards later is better game design than starting with a poisonous area and adding few subsequent land masses.

Super Mario Bros. is arguably the best demonstration of how to to game difficulty right. Level 1-1 is the template for how all tutorials should be constructed. Games should teach their mechanics through early gameplay, while later challenges require more advanced maneuvers and some trial and error.

A Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time, and A Link Between Worlds have a thoughtfully created early game. They nudge players into the world with some basic combat and puzzles before removing the training wheels and allowing players to think for themselves.

This kind of difficulty is fair and rewarding, giving players a sense of learning and achievement throughout a game.

Actually I'd have to argue that ALBW is the worst offender when it comes to failing to scale its difficulty correctly. Each temple (after going to Lorule) is designed around the idea that any one of them could be your first or second dungeon, so they're all about the same difficulty. Which is fine, for the first one or two. But once your power level starts to climb by gaining more heart containers and items, the later dungeons become disgustingly, shamefully easy.

 

[A Link In Time]

Actually I'd have to argue that ALBW is the worst offender when it comes to failing to scale its difficulty correctly. Each temple (after going to Lorule) is designed around the idea that any one of them could be your first or second dungeon, so they're all about the same difficulty. Which is fine, for the first one or two. But once your power level starts to climb by gaining more heart containers and items, the later dungeons become disgustingly, shamefully easy.

Yes, I agree with your statement, but I was more referring to ALBW having a very simple start with Link not gaining the ability to transform into a painting and rent items until after the first dungeon. While the game as a whole isn't overly challenging, there were some clever puzzles in the Dark Palace and Ice Ruins.

 

[snakeoiltanker]

Dang! I was reading the whole thread waiting to say exactly what @Curmudgeon said.

I feel like most people are thinking more in general gaming with their answers. Cuz the only game I can think of that make you do things over and over is AoL. Which is true. But as Curm said I love that shiz.

AoL punished you for not focusing on the sword play. Yes in a way later dungeon the hid something really important behind a false wall. But that's just one little thing we like to forget. As far as combat in that game which IMO is the best in the series.

AoL is not that hard if you work on your sword play and not forget your magic, shield, jump ect. So for all of you just wanting me to shut up, AoL is my Hard=Hate. Love this game with a passion, cuz I'm "Old School".

 

[AncientPoe]

Dang! I was reading the whole thread waiting to say exactly what @Curmudgeon said.

I feel like most people are thinking more in general gaming with their answers. Cuz the only game I can think of that make you do things over and over is AoL. Which is true. But as Curm said I love that shiz.

AoL punished you for not focusing on the sword play. Yes in a way later dungeon the hid something really important behind a false wall. But that's just one little thing we like to forget. As far as combat in that game which IMO is the best in the series.

AoL is not that hard if you work on your sword play and not forget your magic, shield, jump ect. So for all of you just wanting me to shut up, AoL is my Hard=Hate. Love this game with a passion, cuz I'm "Old School".

What I loved most about that game is how finally beating the game made me feel… WHICH IS THE WHOLE POINT OF A DIFFICULT GAME!

 

[Curmudgeon]

even the aforementioned mario brothers, like most other nes games, had a put up or shut up moment. there are significant jumps in difficulty in worlds 5 and 7 that a lot of people just couldn't get passed. some of those moments come sooner (bad dudes, battletoads), some come later (ninja gaiden, castlevania), but all of those games established at some point who's a little ***** (spoilers: it's you). there are plenty of games i never got through because of this. i can't say finishing the last few levels would change how i felt about a lot of them though.

 

[Aku]

My criterion for a 'hard' boss? If the boss is annoying/stupid to look at, then I'm not going to have the patience to enjoy fighting him. Odd criterion sure, but I want a boss that thrills me when I see him.

Tentalus is easy but looks lame as hell (fighting this I'd just want it over with, thus rushing and making it artificially hard) while a Ninja Gaiden end-boss-level-hard Ganondorf in Ganon mode would be a sweet dream come true.

As far as puzzles, I think the ones that work best for me is if they are hard environmental puzzles. 'Get item from point a to z' and 'Figure out how to activate door/switch/portal/dimensional gate using said environmental puzzle.' I'm not too good with more abstract stuff using magic, but I love anything using the former stuff.

 

[the8thark]

Would you agree though, that there is a threshold for this?

The threshold is skill. If you need more skill to avoid the harder damage and when it kills you, it easily shows you where you went wrong, that is good. It becomes bad when it's unavoidable damage or blind damage. Blind damage being you have no idea the damage is coming till boom you're hit. A good game gives you preparation to warn you of what's coming, easier areas to get you used to the game or harder enemies, not just dump you in head dirst and you die without even knowing why.

What you say about that Spirit Temple you mentioned. By that point in the game you've already fought many lizfols and other enemies so you know how to Z-target, how to avoid hits. You are not going in blind. The game just makes what you've already been doing in the game and ramps up the difficulty. This is a very good example of adding in more damage. It makes the previously easy all fo a sudden become much harder and a nice element of skill. And if you lose to it, you know exactly why and can improve over time till you actually beat it.

 

[ILU]

In response to OP, I can't say that hard=hate, at least not for me. Because Zelda isn't hard, or at least it isn't anymore.

I played the original two in the NES, and I found TLOZ more difficult because of the openness... But I LIKED that. I WANT difficulty. I get upset when it's easy.

TAoL bothered me a bit with the controls since it was more battle-focused, but I blame that on my lack of experience with older consoles. I didn't grow up with those old things.... I see older generations absolutely wreck games on the old clunky control styles, but it took me a while to adjust from N64 to NES. So I can't really blame the game and call it "hard."

 

[AncientPoe]

The threshold is skill. If you need more skill to avoid the harder damage and when it kills you, it easily shows you where you went wrong, that is good. It becomes bad when it's unavoidable damage or blind damage. Blind damage being you have no idea the damage is coming till boom you're hit. A good game gives you preparation to warn you of what's coming, easier areas to get you used to the game or harder enemies, not just dump you in head dirst and you die without even knowing why.

What you say about that Spirit Temple you mentioned. By that point in the game you've already fought many lizfols and other enemies so you know how to Z-target, how to avoid hits. You are not going in blind. The game just makes what you've already been doing in the game and ramps up the difficulty. This is a very good example of adding in more damage. It makes the previously easy all fo a sudden become much harder and a nice element of skill. And if you lose to it, you know exactly why and can improve over time till you actually beat it.

Right, exactly. Basically Iron Knuckle makes your failures more immediate, more urgent. Failing to avoid a lizalfos is rarely going to be a danger at that moment, it'll be the slow attrition through the dungeon. But 6 hearts straight away is the game telling you "you need to get better at this, and you need to do it RIGHT NOW." It's essentially a barrier to entry, a "you must be this badass to ride this ride" sign. I imagine that anyone who had to do that fight multiple times to get past it ended up changing their strategy in some way: finding more heart pieces first, or going in fully equipped to handle it. That's why I feel a game must escalate its difficulty well, and why I like games that very challenging, because the sense of accomplishment you reap at the end is directly proportional to the hurdles you faced getting there.

 

[Soul]

I believe it depends on how the difficult segment is set up. Especially when it comes to puzzles, I find it very important that it's possible to figure it out through logical thinking. If a puzzle just doesn't make sense I'll get frustrated and just look it up. Usually I immediately regret doing that.

One situation I just encountered where I didn't regret looking it up at all was in the Master Quest version of Ocarina's Spirit Temple, which has one puzzle that is, in my opinion, impossible to figure out without dumb luck or incredible persistance in trying out random ****.

I'm talking about the treasure chest that freezes you when you open it. You can hit it with your sword to open a door, but you can also go another way, through a series of rooms, until you hit a roadblock where you can't progress anymore because you need the mirror shield. Getting to that point took me quite a while, so when I finally arrived and found I lacked the dungeon item absolutely needed to progress, I had no idea where to go. Even when I somehow found my way back to the room with the freeze chest, I'm still wondering how in the world anyone is supposed to figure that out. It's totally random, there's nothing hinting at what you have to do and honestly, by that point I had forgotten about the chest anyway. It was just like any other already opened treasure chest to me, nothing special.

Things like that are really frustrating to me. I like tricky puzzles that make you use your head. A good example of that can be found in Skyward Sword in the Thunderdome, the part where you have to build the bridge. That puzzle took me quite a while to figure out, but it was never frustrating because it was clear just what I had to do, just not yet how, making finally getting it right very satisfying. The treasure chest on the other hand is so random and unexpected that you could never figure it out by using your head, only by doing random ****.

Now this would be excusable if the path had been linear up to that point and it was clear that you had to open that door somehow, because there was nowhere else to go. But the Spirit Temple freely lets you go ahead somewhere you can't progress yet, which leads to very annoying backtracking, which is something that I loathe. I just think the punishment for not hitting that chest is way too harsh.