The Imprisoning War Scandal

[Deku Lord]

The Zelda fan universe is a strange creature to think about, we have widespread agreement, widespread disagreement and an overall tension about anything Zelda. Now to be sure the timeline is the biggest of these problems, an ultimate seemingly unreachable object that every devout fan desires to learn the truth of. We’ve got our split timeline believers (who’ve been proven right by the all powerful deity of Nintendo), and our linear timeline believers (who like to hang around in the new no-fly zone of timeline-ists) and then within the rungs there are the no timeline believers. Now writing as a fan, I’m all for the official split-timeline, it makes partial sense in its being apart of the Zelda world. However, being true to this focus of an article, I have a grand chunk of information to share. There are misconceptions in the people and seemingly, the biggest one is the Imprisoning War. (First mentioned, and only mentioned, in A Link to the Past)


-The Belief: Just about 100% of the time that I have gone around the great internet I have seen one of the saddest things in my life, this belief. The Imprisoning War is almost unanimously declared the events of the Ocarina of Time video game released for the N64 some odd years ago. My favourite saying in life (as of 10 seconds before writing this sentence) is for everyone to pay attention to detail, pay attention to context. If those who believe this had, you just might feel a tad bit ashamed.


-The Truth: Once upon a time there existed a manual, a manual brimming with fascinating information about a kingdom’s past. In fact, this long history packed together in those small pages was the first true backstory to a land we had been used to for just over half a decade. The manual was that of The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past. Allow me to quote the fabled typed over version of the manual on EDN.


Full manual can be found here. (http://www.explodingdekunut.net/content/zgames/lttp/lttpstory.html)

(http://www.explodingdekunut.net/content/zgames/lttp/lttpstory.html)
The Imprisoning War I do not know what Ganon wished for from the Triforce. However, in time evil power began to flow from the Golden Land and greedy men were drawn there to become members of Ganon's army. Black clouds permanently darkened the sky, and many disasters beset Hyrule. The lord of Hyrule sent for the Seven Wise Men and the Knights Of Hyrule, and ordered them to seal the entrance to the Golden Land. The Triforce, being an inanimate object, cannot judge between good and evil. Therefore, it could not know that Ganon's wishes were evil; it merely granted them. Suspecting that Ganon's power was based on the Triforce's magic, the people of Hyrule forged a sword resistant to magic which could repulse even powers granted by the Triforce. This mighty weapon became known as the Blade of Evil's Bane, or the Master Sword. It was so powerful that only one who was pure of heart and strong of body could wield it. As the Seven Wise Men searched for a valiant person to take up the Master Sword, Ganon's evil army swarmed from the tainted Golden Land into Hyrule and attacked the castle. The Wise Men and the Knights Of Hyrule combined forces to wage war on this evil horde. The Knights took the full brunt of the fierce attack, and although they fought courageously, many a brave soul was lost that day. However, their lives were not lost in vain, for they bought precious time for the Seven Wise Men to magically seal Ganon in the Golden land. All of Hyrule rejoiced at the victory that upheld peace and order over Ganon's evil and chaos. This war, which had claimed many lives, became known as the Imprisoning War in stories told in later centuries.

-The Truth Continued: Once you have read those two paragraphs I would like to direct you to the facts about the Imprisoning War. There are plenty of things to talk about with this actually, there are many defences, but as far as my research is concerned, there is no true defence. The Imprisoning War predates Ocarina of Time for the following reasons:


1. The Sages/Wise Men are literally called the Wise Men, truly a connection to the fact that they are all Hylian in nature. Take into account the reason if they weren’t, why wouldn’t that be mentioned and why name them collectively as Men? Now this is a valid point to make, there is an official artwork rendition of them surrounding a collecting seal, and the use of that is to make the fact that they are all human.


The picture can be found here. (http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb294/Zeldaeinstein/z3manual-05-06.jpg)

(http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb294/Zeldaeinstein/z3manual-05-06.jpg)
Or you can take into account all the descendant of the Seven Wise Men are maidens, Hylian maidens.


2. This is the more obvious point in the matter. The Master Sword was not forged until the onslaught of Ganon arrived through the corrupted Golden Land. There was no involvement of a Hero in the sealing of the evil being, but besides that, the Master Sword was forged in the middle of the War and a Hero was being searched out to wield it. This fact places it before the times of Ocarina of Time due to the Master Sword’s birth in legend and birth before the times of the Temple of Time in legend.


3. Another important point. Ganondorf finds the Triforce and the entrance to the Golden Land by accident alongside his minions who are thieves. We could go on to say that he betrayed them after getting the Triforce killing them all, etc. etc. but that's a different point to make in the future. If you recall, Ganondorf knew full well how to enter the Sacred Realm in Ocarina of Time, thus his reasoning for tracking down the Spiritual Stones. In Ocarina of Time, the title of King of Thieves, or by his name Mandrag Ganon, was no where to be found, he seemingly worked alone without the aid of his fellow Gerudo people as well, no group of thieves following his every whim. In the Imprisoning War, that still lacks a Hero, Ganondorf found and commanded the entire Triforce.


That’s right, Power, Wisdom and Courage all belonged to him, he had these virtues, unlike in Ocarina of Time where the Power of Gold broke into three pieces and fled to those worthy enough to own them. If that doesn't seal the deal, I have no idea what will. Maybe since he attacked Hyrule from this Golden Land of his, maybe that might help, who knows? Oh and notice he was sealed into his tainted Golden Land with the Triforce alongside him. I don't recall that being a truth in Ocarina of Time, I only viewed the Power piece fly off into that precious blinding white void that latched onto the pixels of my TV for days.


-The Defense
If not in Ocarina of Time, then what about Twilight Princess? The answer is also painfully simple, that was the Twilight Realm, 6 human-like sages, and it's been placed officially after Majora's Mask, after the split occurs in the timeline Sadly that is all I can muster to bother thinking about for the Imprisoning War being defended. It has been placed as before the events of Ocarina of Time due to several factors, and it cannot take place after the split in the timeline due to it being the first introduction of Ganondorf, his accident of finding an entrance, and the creation of the Master Sword.


-Concluding
Now this is the easy deal of the War. It's a strange fact that I am beginning these series of articles with the most extensive and potentially the most ground breaking of all the ones that will grace the line of pieces of work. If you want to be introduced to what you will find, what you will have to work your head around in this area of EDN, stay tuned for the complementary article of the Imprisoning War Scandal. Evil's Bane. Here’s something to think about for a while during your wait.
As far as we are concerned, and as far as the legends are concerned, Ganondorf made no attempts to free himself from this predating event of Ocarina of Time due to the incapability of destroying the seal. His first attempt was using Agahnim for his bidding to help him come free of the Golden Land, after the events of Ocarina of Time and after when the timeline was officially split. So?
Until next time, this has been an article of Corrupted Legends, of The Life and Times of Hyrule and Co.


Written by Zeldaeinstein, my partner in writing the timeline articles on EDN.

[TheManInTheMoon]

There are so many mistakes in the '92 ALttP manual...

http://www.zeldalegends.net/files/text/z3translation/z3_manual_story.html

[Deku Lord]

Who's to say the translator at that site isn't inaccurate? If I was going on translating everything, I might write an article about it, maybe make the table look better. Maybe he slacked off. It's not hard to create a basic table and put a few random symbols followed by a false translation on the internet.

[TheManInTheMoon]

That's why theres 2 of them ;)
Also, check the GBA rerelease of the manual as well.

[Deku Lord]

NOA's translation proves more true to their translation notes than their own translations! As for the GBA manual, Nintendo knew they screwed up, and instead of making a new game, they "remade" a game making discrete changes (including lowering enemy difficulty) so that their cover up of the real manual went unnoticed. Nintendo needs to work around their mistakes, not try to cover them up. It's a magical land for crying out loud, changing the story of a land is not the answer, they need to work around it.

[TheManInTheMoon]

NOA's translation proves more true to their translation notes than their own translations!Were we reading the same translation? They're clearly point out significant differences: Wise Men being sages, Ganon not being the reason for the MS's creation, etc.

also, something that may interest you http://zelda.vgrc.net/bombers.php?subaction=showfull&id=1190998715&archive=&start_from=&ucat=7&

[Deku Lord]

Are we reading the same notes? The notes on that site support NOA's translation.

And to poke a rather large hole in the whole "OoT is the Imprisoning War" bit, what of the fact that the seven sages were hylian. In OoT, you have an elf, a rock-man, a fish-woman, and four humans, only one, maybe two at the most, were of Hylian descent. All sages in the Imprisoning War were Hylian.

Both of those articles have their minds set on the assumption that OoT is the Imprisoning War. It is not.

*Edit* Also, those "significant differences" are simply translation choices. If you haven't noticed, every time they made a change, they said that NOA's was just as possible, if not more likely.

[TheManInTheMoon]

And to poke a rather large hole in the whole "OoT is the Imprisoning War" bit, what of the fact that the seven sages were human. In OoT, you have an elf, a rock-man, a fish-woman, and four humans, only one, maybe two at the most, were of Hylian descent. All sages in the Imprisoning War were Hylian.It's a magical land for crying out loudRefuting 3: Where Do Babies Come From?

How do you get seven apparently human descendants from a group of five more-or-less-humans, a rock-man, and a fish-woman? Frankly, I don’t think anybody knows. Does that make the idea any less plausible in a fantasy setting? Absolutely not!

The Zelda series is full of examples of descendants springing from creatures that are not of their species. The Kokiri originally take on human forms, but are known as the children of the Great Deku Tree, and later take on the forms of the tree-like Koroks. The Zoras are a blend between humans and fish, and later evolve into the Rito, a bird-like race. Phantom Hourglass follows this vein in taking the Postman seen in Twilight Princess and The Minish Cap and giving him wings. With these precedents in place, it seems there is an abundance of instances in which racial barriers are oversighted within the series, and I see no reason why there should not be another in this case.

Both of those articles have their minds set on the assumption that OoT is the Imprisoning War. It is not.And this article was written under the assumption that it isn't.

What it really comes down to is what you want to believe.

-If you don't want OoT to be the IW, then there is evidence to back it up, and you can place it somewhere else in the timeline (though I wouldn't put it at TP, as that misses the whole point of the IW, sealing the SR)

-If you do want OoT to be the IW, then there is evidence there as well, and the OoT - ALttP link remains.

There's nothing truly conclusive either way

While there is nothing wrong with debating which is true, if its going to be in article form it should be built upon solid evidence, not an outdated (and proven as such) manual.

[Deku Lord]

It wasn't outdated, it was a cover up attempt.

Also, have you looked at the the pictures? There is no rock-man's hand there. There is easily enough evidence to disprove OoT being the Imprisoning War. Maybe you should read through the article again, paying attention to things like Ganon's knowledge of the triforce. I'm going to use that example for now.

-In OoT, Ganon knew where the triforce was and knew how to get there. When he found his way into the Golden Land just before the Imprisoning War, it was "quite by accident." Which brings me to..

-Ganon entered the realm BEFORE the Imprisoning War. The knights were instructed to forge the Master Sword to repel the evil, and the majority of the War was spent looking for the hero.

-Where are the knights in OoT? They sure weren't fighting to keep Ganon in the Golden Land. He went in, took the Triforce of Power, and left, upon which he slaughtered and imprisoned everybody.

-Ganon only had the Triforce of Power in OoT. During the Imprisoning War, he had the whole freaking thing.

And that's just running with one idea. Add the fact that all the sages were human, and it is not physically possible for OoT to be the Imprisoning War. It must be separate, whether Nintendo tries to cover up the real manual or not.

[TheManInTheMoon]

It wasn't outdated, it was a cover up attempt.*Sigh*
That's what, twice now you've claimed a coverup/conspiracy to support you claims? If I didn't know better I'd think you were trolling me.
Also, have you looked at the the pictures? There is no rock-man's hand there. There is easily enough evidence to disprove OoT being the Imprisoning War.Nintendo is allowed creative license to create their games, they exercised that right during OoT. The other races hadn't even been envisioned in 1992, so of course they weren't pictured.
-In OoT, Ganon knew where the triforce was and knew how to get there. When he found his way into the Golden Land just before the Imprisoning War, it was "quite by accident." Which brings me to..It still was quite by accident, he didn't get in himself. He was just lucky enough to piggy-back on Link drawing the sword.


-Ganon entered the realm BEFORE the Imprisoning War. The knights were instructed to forge the Master Sword to repel the evil, and the majority of the War was spent looking for the hero.
That would sum up the seven years that Link and the MS were gone (with Zelda, a sage, looking for them)

-Ganon only had the Triforce of Power in OoT. During the Imprisoning War, he had the whole freaking thing.Nothing requires that he have the entire Triforce from the IW straight to ALttP, he just has to have it prior to ALttP.

And that's just running with one idea. Add the fact that all the sages were human, and it is not physically possible for OoT to be the Imprisoning War. It must be separate, whether Nintendo tries to cover up the real manual or not.Who says back stories applying to other games must be 100% accurate? Look at TWW, according to its retelling of OoT, Link (as a child, no less) used the MS and ToC to seal up Ganon. That's not what happened though, the Sages' sealed him. Does this mean OoT isn't TWW's back story? Of course not. What it means is that over time, knowledge of past events becomes distorted, accounting for any discrepancies.

Also, this should show that they obviously intended OoT to be the IW

Below are comments from two staff members of the OoT development team; one from the Character Designer, Satoru Takizawa, and one from the Script Director, Toru Osawa. In this interview, conducted at the time of OoT's release by the Japanese website Ki no ue no Himitsu kichi and translated by Zethar-II[5], Takizawa confirms that they were dealing with ALttP's Imprisoning War (also known as the Seal War) when designing OoT's story, and thus was meant to be the account of the seven Sages' seal on the Sacred Realm in that backstory.

Takizawa: In past, when you thought about Ganon in Zelda, he was a pig. This time, when were collaborating ideas, we thought "He wouldn't be a pig, would he?" There were even some who thought "I don't want him to be a pig." But I still thought that at least the end should have Ganon as a pig. The whole time I wanted to know what Mr. Miyamoto thought, but in the end, I realized that Mr. Miyamoto didn't have an opinion on the matter, so I decided to do it the way I wanted.

This time, the story really wasn't an original. We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages" from the SNES edition Zelda. To give that game a little "secret" recognition, I thought that keeping the "pigness" in Ganon would be the correct course. So we made him a beast "with the feeling of a pig."

Osawa then states that the Sages' names in OoT later become the basis for the town names in AoL (though in reality, the Sages were actually named in reference to the towns themselves as a throwback to that game, as was the case with Talon and Malon, and their similarity to Tarin and Marin from LA).

Osawa: Though in this game Zelda is now included in the Seven Sages, the other six have the names of the town names from the Disk System edition "The Adventure of Link."

In the SNES edition game, the story "Long ago, there was a war called the Imprisoning War" was passed along. A name in the Imprisoning War era is the name of a Town later. They were like "pseudo-secrets." We wanted to throw these out through the entirety of the game. That thing from then is now this.

Tarin and Marin, a father and girl who appeared in "Link's Awakening" (GB) were used as the base for a different parent and child who comes out in this game. These are the things that when they are seen by a person who has played Zelda before they will understand. If people begin to think "Do you think that this could be that thing from then?" then I will be happy.

For some time, this was regarded as undeniable proof that OoT was meant to be the Seal War in ALttP's backstory, and thus shared a connection with the older games. Of course, after the release of TWW, and even more so after TP's, many increasingly felt this connection breaking so as to give way to newer games in the series, as both games contradict the OoT-ALttP connection in their own ways. Nevertheless, the intent to connect these games seems to have been there since OoT's release. What is debatable is the extent to which they were willing to preserve that connection.

[Deku Lord]

-Now then, about Nintendo's 'creative license', you treat the Big N as if they are supposed to be some kind of God. Nintendo needs to not change the manual of old, because those who remember will argue its case. Regardless of their intent, the races are not there in the Imprisoning War. They are all Hylian, and they can't change that. They need to work around their mistakes instead of overwriting them.

-Have you forgotten about his band of theives who were supposed to follow him? Last I checked, the Gerudo were not following him in, and they were still alive afterwards. Also, if they did by chance make it in, I don't recall the Gerudo being skilled in the Dark Arts.

-Have you forgotten that during the War Ganon was INSIDE THE BLOODY REALM? In OoT, he is NOT, he is OUTSIDE screwing up the rest of Hyrule.

-If they did forge a new sword, where'd it go? Also, the entire War was HERO-LESS, as in NO HERO.

-If the backstories are not 100% accurate, then Ninteno cannot have a 100% accurate timeline. If you are arguing all this creative license and inaccuracy crap, then go help out the people who still go for the linear timeline theory; they need the false hope.

Please try actually thinking about my statements this time around, my time in this thread is becoming very droll, seeing as I am pointing out things you should already know if you're as expert on the War as you act.

[TheManInTheMoon]

-If the backstories are not 100% accurate, then Ninteno cannot have a 100% accurate timeline.

DING DING DING,
we have a winner

[Deku Lord]

Er, spam much?

That just proves my point more. If they want to have the timeline they are shooting for, they need to work around mistakes instead of covering them with new mistakes which cause more anger in the community.

[TheManInTheMoon]

Or theorists can stop worrying about every minute detail and focus on the grander scheme.

[Forlong]

Well, Deku Lord, Shigeru Miyamoto said that "Ocarina of Time" was to cover the backstory in "Link to the Past". So even he made a mistake with that. Fact is, he can say that that manual isn't canon.

[Deku Lord]

-If theorists like myself don't worry about every minute detail, there is nothing to theorize about, and nothing much more interesting than an evening meal to debate about.
Also, we do look at the 'grander scheme', but to get the true grand scheme you must look at the minute details that will bring all the flaws that people who focus on the grand scheme miss.


-That goes back to my point of Nintendo covering it up

[Nathan]

It wasn't outdated; it was a cover up attempt.

So, you’re claiming then that the original version of the game, of which was released in Japan before any other version, or translation, existed, does not hold any sort of Canon over a translated version? Well then, I guess Translations that are "incorrect" have become canon because NOA did them, not the actual mind behind the game (Myiamoto, who doesn't speak English all too well). I am so glad this has been cleared up for me.


Also, have you looked at the pictures? There is no rock-man's hand there. There is easily enough evidence to disprove OoT being the Imprisoning War. Maybe you should read through the article again, paying attention to things like Ganon's knowledge of the triforce. I'm going to use that example for now.


You say plenty of evidence, and all I see is speculation. Just because a picture from the very early 90's does not depict a rock-man's hand does not mean that it isn't possible. As has been stated, they simply were not thought up yet at the time of the picture. It doesn't mean they can't change their minds down the road. That's the beauty of time line theories - each game that comes out can throw all theories for a loop. A picture clearly doesn't make something canon. You want proof? Then why the hell do parts of hyrule between games totally change locations? On top of that, very few maps of hyrule across the games match up. Those maps are just as much "canon" as a picture from the early 90's. Aka, it doesn't mean a whole lot.


-In OoT, Ganon knew where the triforce was and knew how to get there. When he found his way into the Golden Land just before the Imprisoning War, it was "quite by accident." Which brings me to...


He knew where it was? Or, did he just know who DID know where it was... the royal family. (Or so, he thought knew where it was). One could safely argue he attempted kidnap Zelda to force the King to either tell him where the triforce was, or to simply hand it over. Why else is he chasing her out of the castle? Plus, Since Link happened to be there when Ganondorf was chasing her... it would make Ganondorf suspicious of him... and what he knows. Surely, he spied on him and... well... when he pulled the sword he was watching and took advantage. I doubt he actually knew how to get into the Golden Land. In fact, it appears to me it could be by mistake. Could be, is the key word. After all, this is just theorizing.


-Ganon entered the realm BEFORE the Imprisoning War. The knights were instructed to forge the Master Sword to repel the evil, and the majority of the War was spent looking for the hero.


So, I was unaware the War had started yet. So, let’s assume he accidentally stumbled upon Link and got into the Sacred Realm by mistake... well the war had not started yet had it? So... there it is... before the war. Of course, there are other ways to explain it. The knights were instructed to forge a sword - true... but did the sword ever actually get made? I mean, it's fairly difficult for simple "hylians" to create a magic weapon. Oh, and I am fairly certain for 7 years, Zelda was trying to find Link.


-Where are the knights in OoT? They sure weren't fighting to keep Ganon in the Golden Land. He went in, took the Triforce of Power, and left, upon which he slaughtered and imprisoned everybody.


And you know this because you played those 7 years right? So, in no way could they have actually fought to keep Ganondorf in there after noticing the door was open? I am sure Ganondorf was not the only person who noticed the Realm was open, just a thought.


-Ganon only had the Triforce of Power in OoT. During the Imprisoning War, he had the whole freaking thing.


Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I don't know. There are too many theories surrounding this entire aspect to give a really good response.


And that's just running with one idea. Add the fact that all the sages were human, and it is not physically possible for OoT to be the Imprisoning War. It must be separate, whether Nintendo tries to cover up the real manual or not.

Didn't you already state this at the beginning? Oh well. Nintendo isn't trying to cover up anything. They are not trying to cover up the original version of the AOL manual (Japan) or the original version of any other game manual. However, they could be taking creative freedom to try and get everything pieced together. After all, if there was a definitive time line, it would be very obvious and all theories would no longer exist.

-Now then, about Nintendo's 'creative license', you treat the Big N as if they are supposed to be some kind of God. Nintendo needs to not change the manual of old, because those who remember will argue its case. Regardless of their intent, the races are not there in the Imprisoning War. They are all Hylian, and they can't change that. They need to work around their mistakes instead of overwriting them.
[quote]

Mistake? According to whom... you? I get what you’re saying: History cannot be rewritten. What happened happened. However, this is not reality. Were talking about a fantasy game that arguably never originally HAD a time line. In fact, it was not even intended to become a series. When the original game was made it was intended as a standalone title. So, I think we can excuse the creators of the games for possibly changing a few things to make everything fit better. After all, they can predict everything their mind is going to cook up a decade later right? Especially when they make the games "out of order" time line wise. It is what it is.

Oh and last I checked, for the Zelda franchise, Nintendo IS a God. After all, it's THEIR game.

[QUOTE=Deku Lord;5876]
-Have you forgotten about his band of thieves who were supposed to follow him? Last I checked, the Gerudo were not following him in, and they were still alive afterwards. Also, if they did by chance make it in, I don't recall the Gerudo being skilled in the Dark Arts.


Proof of this? I don't remember playing those 7 years, do you? Oh, and we know EVERYTHING about EVERY race in the game, right? Who would have thought at the time that Zora's could possibly fly one day?


-Have you forgotten that during the War Ganon was INSIDE THE BLOODY REALM? In OoT, he is NOT, he is OUTSIDE screwing up the rest of Hyrule.


I am so glad you know everything that happened in every waking moment of the War. While there is a lot information and "canon" for the war available, many of it contradicts itself, and some parts you are left wondering. Last I checked, didn't Ganondorf WIN the war? I could be mistaken... but that was my impression. IF that was the case... then would he not have fought OUT of the realm and into Hyrule? I mean, he may have lost... but that was after the hero showed up, I believe. Again, it's been awhile so I could be way off base.


-If they did forge a new sword, where'd it go? Also, the entire War was HERO-LESS, as in NO HERO.


It says they were told to forge a sword, not that it actually happened. I get told to do a lot of things... sometimes it doesn't happen regardless.


-If the back stories are not 100% accurate, then Nintendo cannot have a 100% accurate timeline. If you are arguing all this creative license and inaccuracy crap, then go help out the people who still go for the linear timeline theory; they need the false hope.


They don't have a 100% accurate timeline; hence we are free to have our theories. Yes, I know they "claim", rather under their breath, that they do have an "ultimate" timeline most assume they just have a general idea, no more fluid then the best of the timeline theorists. It took them a good long while to admit that OOT creates a split timeline. I seriously doubt when they made OOT they were thinking "yeah, this is going to cause a split timeline". In fact, that is exactly why it took so long to say it. The fact that the split timeline at OOT makes no literal sense (for reasons I won’t get into) is irrelevant. Myiamoto said the timeline is split. You know what? In 10 years he may say it's not because the games up to that point completely changed the entire timeline.

That’s why we get to theorize instead of being told. Myiamoto, and Nintendo, don't care all too much about the timeline. They just try harder now to make things fit because we demand it, not because it overly concerns them. Story, game play, fun. That is their focus. Making the story fit with everything isn't possible most the time... so they just do their best, or alter history when necessary.


Please try actually thinking about my statements this time around, my time in this thread is becoming very droll, seeing as I am pointing out things you should already know if you're as expert on the War as you act.

You know, I read the entire 2 pages of this and you’re the one coming across as argumentative while Moon is just trying to have a conversation. In fact, your points are only really on a solid base back in 1993. It's been 15 years and crap changed. It happens. I understand you don't like to think Nintendo messes with History in the series... but they do. Deal with it. Creative freedom is something they do use, whether you like it or not.

Err, spam much?

That just proves my point more. If they want to have the timeline they are shooting for, they need to work around mistakes instead of covering them with new mistakes which cause more anger in the community.

Let me ask you: What time line do you think Nintendo IS shooting for? Last I heard, they won’t tell us. In fact, many assume they are trying to piece it together just like we are. The only anger I see is from close minded people that can't accept that events in history are altered for creative purposes. I mean no offense in any of what I am saying... but you just sound like person who refuses to even consider anyone else’s theories because all of yours, in your mind, is 100% Canon.

[Deku Lord]

So, you’re claiming then that the original version of the game, of which was released in Japan before any other version, or translation, existed, does not hold any sort of Canon over a translated version? Well then, I guess Translations that are "incorrect" have become canon because NOA did them, not the actual mind behind the game (Myiamoto, who doesn't speak English all too well). I am so glad this has been cleared up for me.



You say plenty of evidence, and all I see is speculation. Just because a picture from the very early 90's does not depict a rock-man's hand does not mean that it isn't possible. As has been stated, they simply were not thought up yet at the time of the picture. It doesn't mean they can't change their minds down the road. That's the beauty of time line theories - each game that comes out can throw all theories for a loop. A picture clearly doesn't make something canon. You want proof? Then why the hell do parts of hyrule between games totally change locations? On top of that, very few maps of hyrule across the games match up. Those maps are just as much "canon" as a picture from the early 90's. Aka, it doesn't mean a whole lot.



He knew where it was? Or, did he just know who DID know where it was... the royal family. (Or so, he thought knew where it was). One could safely argue he attempted kidnap Zelda to force the King to either tell him where the triforce was, or to simply hand it over. Why else is he chasing her out of the castle? Plus, Since Link happened to be there when Ganondorf was chasing her... it would make Ganondorf suspicious of him... and what he knows. Surely, he spied on him and... well... when he pulled the sword he was watching and took advantage. I doubt he actually knew how to get into the Golden Land. In fact, it appears to me it could be by mistake. Could be, is the key word. After all, this is just theorizing.



So, I was unaware the War had started yet. So, let’s assume he accidentally stumbled upon Link and got into the Sacred Realm by mistake... well the war had not started yet had it? So... there it is... before the war. Of course, there are other ways to explain it. The knights were instructed to forge a sword - true... but did the sword ever actually get made? I mean, it's fairly difficult for simple "hylians" to create a magic weapon. Oh, and I am fairly certain for 7 years, Zelda was trying to find Link.



And you know this because you played those 7 years right? So, in no way could they have actually fought to keep Ganondorf in there after noticing the door was open? I am sure Ganondorf was not the only person who noticed the Realm was open, just a thought.



Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I don't know. There are too many theories surrounding this entire aspect to give a really good response.



Didn't you already state this at the beginning? Oh well. Nintendo isn't trying to cover up anything. They are not trying to cover up the original version of the AOL manual (Japan) or the original version of any other game manual. However, they could be taking creative freedom to try and get everything pieced together. After all, if there was a definitive time line, it would be very obvious and all theories would no longer exist.



Mistake? According to whom... you? I get what you’re saying: History cannot be rewritten. What happened happened. However, this is not reality. Were talking about a fantasy game that arguably never originally HAD a time line. In fact, it was not even intended to become a series. When the original game was made it was intended as a standalone title. So, I think we can excuse the creators of the games for possibly changing a few things to make everything fit better. After all, they can predict everything their mind is going to cook up a decade later right? Especially when they make the games "out of order" time line wise. It is what it is.

Oh and last I checked, for the Zelda franchise, Nintendo IS a God. After all, it's THEIR game.



Proof of this? I don't remember playing those 7 years, do you? Oh, and we know EVERYTHING about EVERY race in the game, right? Who would have thought at the time that Zora's could possibly fly one day?



I am so glad you know everything that happened in every waking moment of the War. While there is a lot information and "canon" for the war available, many of it contradicts itself, and some parts you are left wondering. Last I checked, didn't Ganondorf WIN the war? I could be mistaken... but that was my impression. IF that was the case... then would he not have fought OUT of the realm and into Hyrule? I mean, he may have lost... but that was after the hero showed up, I believe. Again, it's been awhile so I could be way off base.



It says they were told to forge a sword, not that it actually happened. I get told to do a lot of things... sometimes it doesn't happen regardless.



They don't have a 100% accurate timeline; hence we are free to have our theories. Yes, I know they "claim", rather under their breath, that they do have an "ultimate" timeline most assume they just have a general idea, no more fluid then the best of the timeline theorists. It took them a good long while to admit that OOT creates a split timeline. I seriously doubt when they made OOT they were thinking "yeah, this is going to cause a split timeline". In fact, that is exactly why it took so long to say it. The fact that the split timeline at OOT makes no literal sense (for reasons I won’t get into) is irrelevant. Myiamoto said the timeline is split. You know what? In 10 years he may say it's not because the games up to that point completely changed the entire timeline.

That’s why we get to theorize instead of being told. Myiamoto, and Nintendo, don't care all too much about the timeline. They just try harder now to make things fit because we demand it, not because it overly concerns them. Story, game play, fun. That is their focus. Making the story fit with everything isn't possible most the time... so they just do their best, or alter history when necessary.



You know, I read the entire 2 pages of this and you’re the one coming across as argumentative while Moon is just trying to have a conversation. In fact, your points are only really on a solid base back in 1993. It's been 15 years and crap changed. It happens. I understand you don't like to think Nintendo messes with History in the series... but they do. Deal with it. Creative freedom is something they do use, whether you like it or not.



Let me ask you: What time line do you think Nintendo IS shooting for? Last I heard, they won’t tell us. In fact, many assume they are trying to piece it together just like we are. The only anger I see is from close minded people that can't accept that events in history are altered for creative purposes. I mean no offense in any of what I am saying... but you just sound like person who refuses to even consider anyone else’s theories because all of yours, in your mind, is 100% Canon.Unfortunately for me, you make a very forceful argument. I... have absolutely nothing I can say to that. Perhaps I've been clinging to the old manual for two long, but at the very least it will be a great piece of expired history. I think..

I think that I may actually be able to prove the manual is null. EDN's timeline would actually work better without the Imprisoning War being separate. It would certainly clear up a lot of speculation we have...

I'd much like to continue this in a faster fashion. do you have Msn? If you do, pm it to me.

[Nathan]

Well, in all of this, we have to remember that there are multiple ways to look at things. I was so forceful in my response to make it clear to you that different people can view things differently then you, and come up with fairly decent arguments to do so. I in no way necessarily believe half of what I say, as most of it was an example. It's just like I can make good arguments to put TMC before OOT, and good arguments not to. It just comes down to what I choose to believe.

Also, for talking on MSN: I'll add it to my profile soon enough. Being new around here, I forget people just don't "know me and how to contact me". Heh, my mistake. As for finishing up this conversation there... I am willing to discuss it more. However, not talking here ends any way for others to get involved.

So, I'll continue with a couple more points.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb294/Zeldaeinstein/z3manual-05-06.jpg

Now, you use those 2 manual pages in your original post, yet you go on to say about OOT that hyrule was all messed up and according you the manual, he didn't put hyrule in termoil. Let me quote a few lines:

"this weapon became known as the Blade of Evil's Bane, or the Master Sword. It was so powerful that only one who was pure of heart and strong of body could weild it."

Alright... so a blade was forged that could defeat Ganon... but only one person could possibly weild it. Sounds to me... they made a blade for a hero. Obviously... they don't have a hero to weild it.

"As the seven Wise Men searched for a valiant person..."

Again, the Wise Men are searching for a hero. They spend 99.9% of the war doing this.

"Ganon's evil army swarmed from the tainted Golden Land into Hyrule and attack the castle."

Again, they did attack, and ravage, hyrule. Many lives were lost, and frankly it appeared Ganon had won until...

"they bought precious time for the Seven Wise Men to magically seal Ganon in the Golden Land."

So, last we heard they were searching for a valiant person to take up the Master Sword and stop Ganon. One could safely assess then that the War bought them enough time (maybe 7 years... *cough*) to find Link, who then defeated Ganon and with the help of hte sages, sealed him into the realm. It is very vague on how they sealed him into the Golden Land, but being the last we heard they were looking for someone to weild the Master Sword... you can put two and two together. The only really big issue is having "dual Master Swords". I admit, I don't have a very good way to explain it.

I mean, you skip 7 years in OOT and it's possible the sword you pulled is still there the entire 7 years... but that doesn't explain why they forged a new blade... unless the sword you pulled was not the master sword (possibly the picori sword... or the Four Sword. You know, some other sword that sealed things up) and after seven years, the Sages (or Wise Men as they could be called) found Link and exchanged the sword with the Master Sword. Of course, this is REALLY stretching things. The only true argument is Nintendo took a creative license and ignored that part of the original text.

Again though, I neither support the OOT IW theories, nor deny them. I mean, I could also argue that TP is the IW. Heh, I am more or less just trying to "refute" your "there is NO HERO" talks and the whole "hyrule wasn't attacked" claim by using your own sources against you.

[The Zelda Master]

I support the idea that, simply, things could change after saposed years and centuries of time, is our history exactly as is should be? No, did things like paul bunion and some other tall tales happen? probably, but it became somthing different along the way. We asume this 'Legend' is being 'written' In game anwyays by a master who knows the past, and the stories passed down by the families of Hyrule, and yet do we know? gosh, what would have happend if they National enquire was around? or other tabloid magazine type things, they could change the story greatly.

Just saying, the fact is this is meant to be a legend, not somthing with concrete details, and what we ae doing is peaking in for a bit to see the important parts.

[Deku Lord]

Also, for talking on MSN: I'll add it to my profile soon enough. Being new around here, I forget people just don't "know me and how to contact me". Heh, my mistake. As for finishing up this conversation there... I am willing to discuss it more. However, not talking here ends any way for others to get involved.

That's not really the purpose of speaking on Msn, my partner, I'm sure, has more to say than I, but he doesn't belong to these forums. He's probably got something I missed, after all it is his article.

"this weapon became known as the Blade of Evil's Bane, or the Master Sword. It was so powerful that only one who was pure of heart and strong of body could weild it."

Alright... so a blade was forged that could defeat Ganon... but only one person could possibly weild it. Sounds to me... they made a blade for a hero. Obviously... they don't have a hero to weild it.

Or, looking at 'one' in a different context, it could mean that anybody who had a pure heart and strong body could wield it.

"As the seven Wise Men searched for a valiant person..."

Again, the Wise Men are searching for a hero. They spend 99.9% of the war doing this.

Note that all seven are searching for the hero

"they bought precious time for the Seven Wise Men to magically seal Ganon in the Golden Land."

So, last we heard they were searching for a valiant person to take up the Master Sword and stop Ganon. One could safely assess then that the War bought them enough time (maybe 7 years... *cough*) to find Link, who then defeated Ganon and with the help of the sages, sealed him into the realm. It is very vague on how they sealed him into the Golden Land, but being the last we heard they were looking for someone to wield the Master Sword... you can put two and two together. The only really big issue is having "dual Master Swords". I admit, I don't have a very good way to explain it.

It's possible that it was forged before the beginning of OoT, and they didn't think to look for a kid to wield it. However, if you remember, you find the Master Sword as a child, yet the sages don't know that they are the sages until after they are awakened. If that's not proof the War isn't OoT, I don't know what is.

And I'm just going to throw this out there, Ganon knew at least part of how to access the Golden Land, because he cast a curse on the Great Deku Tree, sealed up Dodongo's Cavern, and Infected the Zoras' lord, Jabu Jabu, in order to make them give up the stones. After all that he went to the castle, because he *probably* figured that Hylians would have at least one artifact.

[The Zelda Master]

Well, it wasnt like the Royal family didnt make it at least relativly known... Zelda speaks about how they kept it a guarded secret, and yet she's willing to tekll it to a young 'fairy boy' who she just met, who could just as easily have been a killer and solid snaked his way passed the guards.

[PrinceofDarkness]

-Now then, about Nintendo's 'creative license', you treat the Big N as if they are supposed to be some kind of God. Nintendo needs to not change the manual of old, because those who remember will argue its case. Regardless of their intent, the races are not there in the Imprisoning War. They are all Hylian, and they can't change that. They need to work around their mistakes instead of overwriting them.



They aren't overwriting them, and for one they aren't mistakes the series has to be somewhat fluid for the games to fit together in the first place, there has to be a little wiggleroom. Nintendo retconned that part of Alttp and made the seven sages come from all over hyrule instead of just one area which I think is a better idea, Ganon was trying to take over all of hyrule so it makes more sense to me to have the sages come from all over. And there are also many things that are very ambiguous in OOT, for one, I don't think Ganon even knew if pulling out the master sword would open the door to the golden land. Through his lust for power he was able to learn enough about the sacred stones that he went after them that's all we know, he may not have even known what to do with them and how they were connected to the temple of time, just that they were somehow involved in getting to the golden land.

[The Zelda Master]

I'm sure he merely followed link, knew the stones were important beforehand, or he wouldnt have herassed the people before the events of the game, and let him do his thing, then, might have known you had to be a certain age to lift the master sword and take on the hero's ability.

[Mike Pothier]

All I got to say is the same thing I've always said. Legends and myths are called legends and myths BECAUSE so much time has passed, the facts get distorted. Although that translation page DOES clear up some questions, any distortions between OoT and ALttP can be summed up with one word: Telephone.

Anybody ever play Broken Telephone as kids? AKA Grapevine.

[Wareya]

Wait... Question.

How could this happen without a loop? The master sword was created before OoT, so they wouldn't spontaneously create it like that. Now, OoT is the only place the timeline can split, so the war thing couldn't happen then, or the split timeline would be... Poof. So, did the war happen during MM? Or during the line where Adult Zelda stays after the series?


And yeah, I still play Telephone with 3 friends for the heck of it.