My New Timeline

[ChargewithSword]

Because I am unable to edit my old post I am going to post this in a new one.

---WW--=PH---LOZ---AOL
Minish Cap-Four Swords- OOT-
---MM---TP---FSA---Alttp/La---OOX

I am ready to discuss.

Minish Cap and Four Swords have been confirmed as coming before Four Swords by Anouma.here (http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200405/N04.0517.1915.59084.htm)
OOT is the beginning of the Gerudo King Ganondorf and is the most likely candidate for beginning.

Adult reasons:
Wind Waker has been confirmed as the only direct/indirect sequel to OOT in the adult timeline.
PH is an obvious choice.

LOZ and AoL I chose because of the large body of water that surrounds both Hyrules and because I have a certain theory that Ganon himself is the Triforce of Power. He was born from the ToP's magic and Ganondorf's malice. He became so powerful, that when Ganondorf died he went with the Triforce of Power and became the Ganon in LOZ. When he was born into his own seperate creature, the other pieces left him because of the drastic imbalance.


Child Choices:
MM and TP are quite obvious.

FS is only after it because of this connection to FSA. FSA brings the beginning of Trident of Power, this weapon had been seen in every Zelda that I list after this. This game also mentions the Mirror of Darkness which was in Alttp and I think that it has a link to TP's Twilight mirror which was split into many pieces. Although the pieces themselves were small, imagine if those small peices fell into sand and people used that sand to make a mirror. Each tiny piece has darkness instilled in them.

Alttp has a reference to the Dark Tribe and has a very similar Master Sword location. It also features the Trident which Ganon had obtained in FSA. Also in the GBA version which has the Palace of the Four Sword (I have recognized it as a canon area) you should note that the Four Sword had been split in the Pyramid of Power. This could mean that perhaps Ganon had escaped his prison that was in the Four Sword and began to reek chaos.

OOX I put here because of Ganon being dead and having the Trident of Power. This the only logical timeline to place these games, because of how Twinrova are alive. The child timeline does not have their deaths at your hands.

LA comes after OOX because of how in the ending of OOX you see Link going off into a boat, this suggests that the Link in OOX and Alttp are the same. The Triforce is now in good hands in Hyrule Castle.

And that is my timeline.

[Zemen125]

i agree with much of it but i will list some problems i have.

ALTTP has the BS that talks about the seal war. the creators have confirmed the seal war to be taking place during the adult portion of OoT which means it has to go on the timeline. likewise, that means FS, FSA and LA must go on the adult timeline as well because of their connections to ALTTP.

IMO, LA is not at all a sequel to OoX. the boat is hardly good evidence. the manual for LA states that Link left Hyrule after defeating Ganon to train. he was on his way back to Hyrule after training off in foreign countries. OoX are two big adventures and can hardly be considered "training in foreign countries". it also says that link brought peace to Hyrule, it doesnt mention anything about bringing peace to any foreign countries. i agree that the game takes place on the child timeline which means that the fact that FS, ALTTP and LA have to go on the adult timeline would mean that OoX is not a prequel to LA. this also seems unlikely just from my point of view for a non canon reason which i will explain now.

the most number of adventures any Link has been on is two.

there is:

OoT/MM
WW/PH
*FS/FSA
LoZ/AoL

i put a star by FS/FSA because there is no solid confirmation that its the same Link. just speculation by possible hints in the BS.

if your theory is correct, that means that the Link in those games had 3 seperate adventures in one lifetime. you dont think thats a little much? you dont think the creators would move on with that time period and focus on something new?

other than those problems i mostly agree with the order of the games just not what side of the timeline they may be on. not bad though.

[ChargewithSword]

i agree with much of it but i will list some problems i have.

ALTTP has the BS that talks about the seal war. the creators have confirmed the seal war to be taking place during the adult portion of OoT which means it has to go on the timeline. likewise, that means FS, FSA and LA must go on the adult timeline as well because of their connections to ALTTP.

IMO, LA is not at all a sequel to OoX. the boat is hardly good evidence. the manual for LA states that Link left Hyrule after defeating Ganon to train. he was on his way back to Hyrule after training off in foreign countries. OoX are two big adventures and can hardly be considered "training in foreign countries". it also says that link brought peace to Hyrule, it doesnt mention anything about bringing peace to any foreign countries. i agree that the game takes place on the child timeline which means that the fact that FS, ALTTP and LA have to go on the adult timeline would mean that OoX is not a prequel to LA. this also seems unlikely just from my point of view for a non canon reason which i will explain now.

the most number of adventures any Link has been on is two.

there is:

OoT/MM
WW/PH
*FS/FSA
LoZ/AoL

i put a star by FS/FSA because there is no solid confirmation that its the same Link. just speculation by possible hints in the BS.

if your theory is correct, that means that the Link in those games had 3 seperate adventures in one lifetime. you dont think thats a little much? you dont think the creators would move on with that time period and focus on something new?

other than those problems i mostly agree with the order of the games just not what side of the timeline they may be on. not bad though.

Tell me, how many games had you killed Ganon? Ganon was dead and needed to be revived. Link knew of the existance of the Triforce.

Two games has his death.
LOZ and Alttp (note I am using the games that have the existance of the Trident.) The Trident of Power has become an important item in the Zelda existance and has been featured in Alttp and OOX as Ganon's main weapon.

Plus Link wasn't training until the end of OOX.

Also I finally get how FSA works as the seal war. (Plus don't believe the developers on everything, they have contradicted each other before.)

The Dark Mirror was the first portal to the Dark World and Ganon sought to use it to get more power after he stole the Trident. He brought conflict upon Hyrule and people also started to aim for power (every bandit in the game are examples.) In the conflict, the Knights of Hyrule were lost to the darkness when they tried to protect the maidens (sages) and were turned into monsters. Only Link could help the maidens now, so he needed to seal the doorways into the Dark World which he did. But before destroying them all, he sealed Ganon into the Four Sword and sent it to the Dark World. Which is why the Palace of the Sword exists.

[Zemen125]

Tell me, how many games had you killed Ganon? Ganon was dead and needed to be revived. Link knew of the existance of the Triforce.

Two games has his death.
LOZ and Alttp (note I am using the games that have the existance of the Trident.) The Trident of Power has become an important item in the Zelda existance and has been featured in Alttp and OOX as Ganon's main weapon.

Plus Link wasn't training until the end of OOX.

Also I finally get how FSA works as the seal war. (Plus don't believe the developers on everything, they have contradicted each other before.)

The Dark Mirror was the first portal to the Dark World and Ganon sought to use it to get more power after he stole the Trident. He brought conflict upon Hyrule and people also started to aim for power (every bandit in the game are examples.) In the conflict, the Knights of Hyrule were lost to the darkness when they tried to protect the maidens (sages) and were turned into monsters. Only Link could help the maidens now, so he needed to seal the doorways into the Dark World which he did. But before destroying them all, he sealed Ganon into the Four Sword and sent it to the Dark World. Which is why the Palace of the Sword exists.

well technically he dies in WW and TP too. also, the creators have yet to contradict their words on ALTTPs placement and they made the statement a WHILE ago.

just because the tridents are in the game is not the best evidence for one particular reason. there are two timelines. just because he has the trident in one timeline doesnt mean he cant have it in the other timeline. there are two triforces (an AT one and a CT one) so why cant there be two tridents?

another thing is that the only reason you gave for OoX to be before LA is that the boats look the same and it shows him leaving on a boat. thats a terrible argument. he has to get back to Hyrule somehow after OoX and there sure as hell arent any airplanes. its just a reused design.

another thing is that the LA manual specifically states that Link went training after defeating Ganon in HYRULE, not holodrum or labrynna where the Ganon fight takes place in OoX.

Ganon in OoX is debated not to even be the real Ganon because he wasnt fully resurrected, therefor it doesnt add up quite right. LA manual says peace was brought back to Hyrule, it doesnt mention anything about bringing peace to the world, just Hyrule.

another thing is that if the training started after OoX then why does the LA manual say that he left Hyrule? it says he left Hyrule after beating Ganon and went to train in foreign countries and then is returning to Hyrule.

here is the BS for LA

"Link, who had defeated the evil Ganon and regained peace in Hyrule,"

he defeated Ganon in Hyrule and brought peace to Hyrule. in OoX, he fights the partially resurrected Ganon in Labrynna/Holodrum, not Hyrule so this part of the BS doesnt work for OoX being a prequel to LA.

"had not enjoyed the archived tranquility for long, and eventually becomes restless. Feeling in need of training or enlightenment, he embarks on a journey and sails across oceans in a small sail boat."

this implies that he is leaving from Hyrule, where he lives, to go training. it doesnt say anything about being in a foreign country when he sets sail.

"Eventually Link completes his training in foreign countries and begins to sail back to his home, Hyrule."

this is the only thing that could remotely be an argument for OoX being an LA prequel and even then its pretty terrible evidence. if it was referring to Labrynna and Holodrum then it is an extreme understatement to call those adventures "training"

youre arguing a sail boat. im arguing an entire BS.

[Welbanks]

This is basically the same time line as mine, and I started going by it after reading this thread http://www.zeldadungeon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1496
Your time line and his are almost identical except for he has Four Swords after Minish Cap but, that barley makes a difference either way.
It just seems like yours and his time line makes the most sense.

[ChargewithSword]

well technically he dies in WW and TP too. also, the creators have yet to contradict their words on ALTTPs placement and they made the statement a WHILE ago.

just because the tridents are in the game is not the best evidence for one particular reason. there are two timelines. just because he has the trident in one timeline doesnt mean he cant have it in the other timeline. there are two triforces (an AT one and a CT one) so why cant there be two tridents?

another thing is that the only reason you gave for OoX to be before LA is that the boats look the same and it shows him leaving on a boat. thats a terrible argument. he has to get back to Hyrule somehow after OoX and there sure as hell arent any airplanes. its just a reused design.

another thing is that the LA manual specifically states that Link went training after defeating Ganon in HYRULE, not holodrum or labrynna where the Ganon fight takes place in OoX.

Ganon in OoX is debated not to even be the real Ganon because he wasnt fully resurrected, therefor it doesnt add up quite right. LA manual says peace was brought back to Hyrule, it doesnt mention anything about bringing peace to the world, just Hyrule.

another thing is that if the training started after OoX then why does the LA manual say that he left Hyrule? it says he left Hyrule after beating Ganon and went to train in foreign countries and then is returning to Hyrule.

here is the BS for LA

"Link, who had defeated the evil Ganon and regained peace in Hyrule,"

he defeated Ganon in Hyrule and brought peace to Hyrule. in OoX, he fights the partially resurrected Ganon in Labrynna/Holodrum, not Hyrule so this part of the BS doesnt work for OoX being a prequel to LA.

"had not enjoyed the archived tranquility for long, and eventually becomes restless. Feeling in need of training or enlightenment, he embarks on a journey and sails across oceans in a small sail boat."

this implies that he is leaving from Hyrule, where he lives, to go training. it doesnt say anything about being in a foreign country when he sets sail.

"Eventually Link completes his training in foreign countries and begins to sail back to his home, Hyrule."

this is the only thing that could remotely be an argument for OoX being an LA prequel and even then its pretty terrible evidence. if it was referring to Labrynna and Holodrum then it is an extreme understatement to call those adventures "training"

youre arguing a sail boat. im arguing an entire BS.

The point is to not trust the developers all the time.

Also answer me a good question. If FSA doesn't fit before Alttp when it was pretty much made to mirror it in some form and shares to many similarities, why would it not fit there?
And we can't remove it from the the timeline because you'd be removing OOX as well.

Those are not really two Triforces as much as they are just the Triforces appearing in different places at different times. It is still one Triforce.
If there were multiple Triforces then that would be a paradox that would lead to two Triforces in the Sacred Realm.
You're going to have to try another example, since the sacred realm doesn't follow the split timeline.

Plus why didn't he go back to Hyrule with Zelda? She is clearly seen in Hyrule castle at the end but he instead went on a boat alone.

The manuals mean nothing if there are sequels like these made.
The LA manual won't say he brought peace to Hryrule because OOX was not made at the time if it had been made then they probably would have said "brought peace to the world."

Another thing that makes this Ganon possibly the Ganon of Alttp and FSA is his appearance.
http://zeldawiki.org/images/5/54/OoX_Ganon.gif
http://zeldawiki.org/images/c/c9/ALttP_Ganon.gif
http://www.n-philes.com/m/features/endboss/2006/ganon1.jpg

Their similarities are to alike.

Also another thing that still cements my theory is how Twinrova are still alive, if Alttp was in the adult timeline, then what other game could have you resurecting Ganon not Ganondorf, but Ganon the pig like creature.
You said it yourself that they weren't going to bring back the human Ganondorf, they were going to bring back the beast.

Another thing is that once again, the Link's Awakening manual was not made in time for OOX. Training Foreign lands could have become saving foreign lands.
Plus game developers tend to ignore manuals when making sequels or prequels.

[Zemen125]

youre right, the LA manual isnt made for OoX, but if OoX is supposed to be a prequel then why wasnt it made to fit the manual? why didnt the story say that he went off to train and happened to stumble upon an adventure? it seems like an easy enough addition to make if its supposed to be a prequel. also, idk what youre saying about the FSA thing. i agreed with you that FSA is a prequel to ALTTP i just simply said i dont agree that its on the CT. the order you have the games in is fine (except for OoX and MC IMO) i would just change which side of the timeline most of them are on.

i also dont think that the design of the characters is a canon source for placing them on a timeline. its all just reused ideas really. MC is a prequel to FS and FSA but has pretty significant different character designs than both games.

[ChargewithSword]

youre right, the LA manual isnt made for OoX, but if OoX is supposed to be a prequel then why wasnt it made to fit the manual? why didnt the story say that he went off to train and happened to stumble upon an adventure? it seems like an easy enough addition to make if its supposed to be a prequel. also, idk what youre saying about the FSA thing. i agreed with you that FSA is a prequel to ALTTP i just simply said i dont agree that its on the CT. the order you have the games in is fine (except for OoX and MC IMO) i would just change which side of the timeline most of them are on.

i also dont think that the design of the characters is a canon source for placing them on a timeline. its all just reused ideas really. MC is a prequel to FS and FSA but has pretty significant different character designs than both games.

Let me tell you something Zemen. A lot of times the developers just downright ignore the manuals of old. In truth you have to realize that they put manuals out of their minds.

[Zemen125]

Let me tell you something Zemen. A lot of times the developers just downright ignore the manuals of old. In truth you have to realize that they put manuals out of their minds.

and thats just a theory with no evidence to back it up. thats your opinion. for all you know, they could just not have made OoX to be before LA and youre wrong. no offense, but saying that "they dont think about the manuals" is literally like saying that they dont consider the story of the previous game which is impossible if they are making a game that connects to it. the manual is the BS. they HAVE to consider the BS when making a prequel or a sequel and the BS for LA does not match up with anything in OoX.

[ChargewithSword]

and thats just a theory with no evidence to back it up. thats your opinion. for all you know, they could just not have made OoX to be before LA and youre wrong. no offense, but saying that "they dont think about the manuals" is literally like saying that they dont consider the story of the previous game which is impossible if they are making a game that connects to it. the manual is the BS. they HAVE to consider the BS when making a prequel or a sequel and the BS for LA does not match up with anything in OoX.

Alright then how about the fact that this is a different company who made this game. The only games released at the time that could link to this game were LOZ and Alttp.

Think, WW and TP were never made but in this game Ganon was dead, what does make sense? They made this game with the intentions of it being a sequel.
MC and FSA were made by different companies and didn't even have matching manuals that didn't make sense. Tell me why does the BS always matter.

The Master Sword is at the bottom of the sea and no one fished it up.

[Zemen125]

Alright then how about the fact that this is a different company who made this game. The only games released at the time that could link to this game were LOZ and Alttp.

Think, WW and TP were never made but in this game Ganon was dead, what does make sense? They made this game with the intentions of it being a sequel.
MC and FSA were made by different companies and didn't even have matching manuals that didn't make sense. Tell me why does the BS always matter.

The Master Sword is at the bottom of the sea and no one fished it up.

haha well at least the BS for FS talks about Vaati who is in MC so thats how we know that MC is a prequel because its Vaati's introduction. the BS for LA literally has absolutely nothing to do with OoX. it doesnt matter if a different company was paying the bills. Miyamoto/Aunoma were still the masterminds behind the games. there was just a different name on the checks. LA was made to be a sequel to ALTTP so why in gods name would they decide that they wanted a different game to be a prequel? if it aint broke then dont fix it. LA worked fine as a sequel to ALTTP. there was/is absolutely no need for there to be a different game as a prequel to LA.

its also your speculation that the master sword is never brought up from the sea. for all you know, someone fished it out. in fact, i know that one of the games, as part of a sidequest, has a character give you the remains of the master sword (or maybe the full master sword, i cant remember) and tells you that it was brought up from the bottom of the ocean by the king zora or by just a regular zora or something along those lines. Smertios is the one that brought this to my attention in another thread. all im saying is that regardless of what doesnt make sense in a BS, there is always something to connect it to whatever game is supposed to be a prequel/sequel. LA's BS has absolutely no connections to OoX. you argued FS and MC but FS mentions the same villain that is introduced in MC and the gameplay for MC, FS and FSA are all very similar which makes them obvious connections. there are no obvious connections with OoX and LA except for a stupid, insignificant boat. whats more important to you? a BS with no connections or a boat?

this is what Smertios said in a different thread, i think. he said that in oracle of ages, if you do the correct secrets, the old Zora guy gives you the broken master sword and tells you he retrieved it from the Bottom of the Sea.

[Smertios]

--------------WW--PH-----LOZ--AOL
Minish Cap- OOT-
-MM-----------TP---FS--FSA------ Alttp--- OOX---- LA


Insisting on making the ZeldaWiki standard notation universal:
............./-TWW/PH-LoZ/AoL
TMC-OoT
.............\MM-TP-FS/FSA-LttP/OoX/LA

Could work. I have TMC-FS/FSA-LttP/LA-OoX following in the AT between TWW/PH and LoZ/AoL though. I'll get to it in this post.


Minish Cap is a strange one all together and for now I have chosen to put it before OOT.

I have to agree. TMC shows evidence linking it to both OoT and TWW, but all evidence for both placements is circumstancial and inconclusive.

Personally, I have TMC following TWW, mainly for two reasons:
1) The alphabet used in TMC is the same one used in TWW, and not the one used in OoT or the one used in TP.
and
2) TMC also connects to FS and FSA, which, in my timeline, follow TWW in the AT.


OOT is the beginning of the Gerudo King Ganondorf and is the most likely candidate for beginning.

Yes, i agree with you here. BTW, remember that Hyrule had been unified during the Fierce Wars roughly 10 years before the events of OoT. TMc couldn't have happened between the formation of Hyrule and OoT unless there were 2 heroes (Links) living at the same time.


Adult reasons:
Wind Waker has been confirmed as the only direct/indirect sequel to OOT in the adult timeline.
PH is an obvious choice.

This is wrong. LttP has also been confirmed to come in the AT. That confirmation came when the developers said that the adult events of OoT are the backstory of LttP.


LOZ and AoL I chose because of the large body of water that surrounds both Hyrules and because I have a certain theory that Ganon himself is the Triforce of Power. He was born from the ToP's magic and Ganondorf's malice. He became so powerful, that when Ganondorf died he went with the Triforce of Power and became the Ganon in LOZ. When he was born into his own seperate creature, the other pieces left him because of the drastic imbalance.

Not a theory per se, but it could be possible (even though I doubt it is).

Also, the main piece of evidence for LoZ/AoL to follow the AT is not the large ocean, but the fact that the towns in AoL had the same names of the Sages from OoT (the Sages were only awakened in the adult part of the game).


Child Choices:
MM and TP are quite obvious.

Yup, confirmed.


FS is only after it because of this connection to FSA. FSA brings the beginning of Trident of Power, this weapon had been seen in every Zelda that I list after this. This game also mentions the Mirror of Darkness which was in Alttp and I think that it has a link to TP's Twilight mirror which was split into many pieces. Although the pieces themselves were small, imagine if those small peices fell into sand and people used that sand to make a mirror. Each tiny piece has darkness instilled in them.

I agree about FSA being a prequel to every game that has the trident. But your reasoning for putting it in the CT is weak.

Please notice that Hyrule is an island in FSA. That alone shows intent for it to come in the AT.

Also, I suggest that you read Erimgard's article in ZI about the TP:FSA connections.

http://www.zeldainformer.com/2009/03/the-building-blocks-of-twiligh.php#more

If the Mirrors are the same, the two games cannot possibly come in the same timeline. The Mirror was destroyed in the end of TP, while it is still functional in FSA.

My theory on this is that, before the split, the dark tribe (or interlopers) tried to invade hyrule and some of them were banned to the Twilight Realm. Some stayed and later became the Zuna. That way the mirror could exist in both TP and FSA without the two games coming in the same timeline.


Alttp has a reference to the Dark Tribe and has a very similar Master Sword location. It also features the Trident which Ganon had obtained in FSA. Also in the GBA version which has the Palace of the Four Sword (I have recognized it as a canon area) you should note that the Four Sword had been split in the Pyramid of Power. This could mean that perhaps Ganon had escaped his prison that was in the Four Sword and began to reek chaos.

The MS location is all that really helps placing it in the CT. But, then, you are ignoring the fact that OoT is the Imprisoning War. For everything else you said here, I agree.


OOX I put here because of Ganon being dead and having the Trident of Power. This the only logical timeline to place these games, because of how Twinrova are alive. The child timeline does not have their deaths at your hands.

Oh, OoX can't come between LttP and LA. I agree that OoX is a sequel to LttP (Ganon dead, trident there), but it can't be the same Link. When you meet Zelda in OoX, she asks if you are Link, implying that she they are not acqauintances.


LA comes after OOX because of how in the ending of OOX you see Link going off into a boat, this suggests that the Link in OOX and Alttp are the same. The Triforce is now in good hands in Hyrule Castle.

The boat is not conclusive evidence, considering the heroes from LttP and OoX are not the same. Also, please notice that Link doesn't have the triforce mark in his hand in either LttP or LA, but has it in OoX. They are clearly different heroes.

On the triforce, I agree with you. But, remember where the triforce is before LoZ? It is fully at the castle. So the king hides the ToC in AoL backstory, Ganon steals the ToP in LoZ backstory and Zelda splits the ToW in the same backstory. Doesn't that seems to imply a LttP---LoZ/AoL relation?


the most number of adventures any Link has been on is two.

This is what I call the Obvious Sequels Rule. The only obvious sequels that exist are those that directly connect one game to the other, featuring the same hero, like
LoZ/AoL
LttP/LA
OoT/MM
OoS/OoA
TWW/PH
FS/FSA
TMC/{the 4th FS game that was never produced}
TP/{future game}

The idea is that the devs make all games thinking about only one sequel featuring the same hero. They do that in order not to create complicated storylines involving the same characters.

LttP-OoX/LA would have 3 games featuring the same hero, while LttP/LA-OoX would have 4 games like that.

The only possible way to have LttP, LA and OoX together without breaking the OSR would be by having it like LttP/LA-OoX (which means 'LttP/LA-OoS/OoA' or 'LttP/LA-OoA/OoS').


Tell me, how many games had you killed Ganon? Ganon was dead and needed to be revived. Link knew of the existance of the Triforce.

Blue Ganon dies in 3 (well, actually 4, if you count OoA and OoS separately) games: LoZ, LttP and OoX.

Ganondorf dies in 2 games: TWW and TP.

Considering the ganon that comes back in Oox is Blue Ganon and has the trident, OoX Ganon BS probably refers to LttP.


Plus Link wasn't training until the end of OOX.

Proof?


Also I finally get how FSA works as the seal war. (Plus don't believe the developers on everything, they have contradicted each other before.)

So, when is Ganon sealed in the SR in the SEAL War of FSA??


The Dark Mirror was the first portal to the Dark World and Ganon sought to use it to get more power after he stole the Trident. He brought conflict upon Hyrule and people also started to aim for power (every bandit in the game are examples.) In the conflict, the Knights of Hyrule were lost to the darkness when they tried to protect the maidens (sages) and were turned into monsters. Only Link could help the maidens now, so he needed to seal the doorways into the Dark World which he did. But before destroying them all, he sealed Ganon into the Four Sword and sent it to the Dark World. Which is why the Palace of the Sword exists.

Again, the mirror was destroyed at the end of TP.



Those are not really two Triforces as much as they are just the Triforces appearing in different places at different times. It is still one Triforce.
If there were multiple Triforces then that would be a paradox that would lead to two Triforces in the Sacred Realm.

I think what he meant was that the trident could have been created before the split and, therefor, exist in both timelines...



i also dont think that the design of the characters is a canon source for placing them on a timeline. its all just reused ideas really. MC is a prequel to FS and FSA but has pretty significant different character designs than both games.

Actually, the official art depicts peoplein TMC the same way as the artforms of FS, FSA, TWW and PH. I still think those games were supposed to be together...


The Master Sword is at the bottom of the sea and no one fished it up.

The MS ended set in a stone in TWW, and it was the same way in LttP.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/9412/swordfm3.jpg

If we consider that deflooding happened, the sword+stone could have just risen from under the sea.


this is what Smertios said in a different thread, i think. he said that in oracle of ages, if you do the correct secrets, the old Zora guy gives you the broken master sword and tells you he retrieved it from the Bottom of the Sea.

Yes, that's a theory. But I don't support it because, in my timeline, LttP comes before OoX.

There is a very common timeline theory from ZeldaInformer (ZI) that we call Leximgard-Skyral, that uses that explanation for how the sword came from the bottom of the sea to the woods in LttP. Leximgard-Skyral goes like this:
...../-TWW/PH-LoZ/AoL-OoX-TMC-FS/FSA-LttP/LA
OoT
.....\MM-TP

[ChargewithSword]

haha well at least the BS for FS talks about Vaati who is in MC so thats how we know that MC is a prequel because its Vaati's introduction. the BS for LA literally has absolutely nothing to do with OoX. it doesnt matter if a different company was paying the bills. Miyamoto/Aunoma were still the masterminds behind the games. there was just a different name on the checks. LA was made to be a sequel to ALTTP so why in gods name would they decide that they wanted a different game to be a prequel? if it aint broke then dont fix it. LA worked fine as a sequel to ALTTP. there was/is absolutely no need for there to be a different game as a prequel to LA.

its also your speculation that the master sword is never brought up from the sea. for all you know, someone fished it out. in fact, i know that one of the games, as part of a sidequest, has a character give you the remains of the master sword (or maybe the full master sword, i cant remember) and tells you that it was brought up from the bottom of the ocean by the king zora or by just a regular zora or something along those lines. Smertios is the one that brought this to my attention in another thread. all im saying is that regardless of what doesnt make sense in a BS, there is always something to connect it to whatever game is supposed to be a prequel/sequel. LA's BS has absolutely no connections to OoX. you argued FS and MC but FS mentions the same villain that is introduced in MC and the gameplay for MC, FS and FSA are all very similar which makes them obvious connections. there are no obvious connections with OoX and LA except for a stupid, insignificant boat. whats more important to you? a BS with no connections or a boat?

this is what Smertios said in a different thread, i think. he said that in oracle of ages, if you do the correct secrets, the old Zora guy gives you the broken master sword and tells you he retrieved it from the Bottom of the Sea.

Why fix it? Why fix it? That is a horrible excuse if I ever heard of one. It doesn't change the fact that Ganon was dead and you have no proof saying what OOX is a sequel of. They intended for it to be the Ganon of Alttp because that and LOZ were the only games that made sense for that kind of story.

In Alttp you got the Master Sword whole and on a pedestal similar to the one in TP. Plus if you look at the map placement, you'll find a lack of any nearby ocean. All I see on the Alttp map are many mountains.
Wait, you're talking about in OOX? You shall need to try something else Zemen. There are two ways to obtain the Master Sword, one way gets it from an old man, and the other is from the Zora as you said. Because most people have come to agree that the games could be done in either order and most of us believe that the Master Sword was a simple add on to make the games feel, complete.

[ChargewithSword]

Insisting on making the ZeldaWiki standard notation universal:
............./-TWW/PH-LoZ/AoL
TMC-OoT
.............\MM-TP-FS/FSA-LttP/OoX/LA

Could work. I have TMC-FS/FSA-LttP/LA-OoX following in the AT between TWW/PH and LoZ/AoL though. I'll get to it in this post.



I have to agree. TMC shows evidence linking it to both OoT and TWW, but all evidence for both placements is circumstancial and inconclusive.

Personally, I have TMC following TWW, mainly for two reasons:
1) The alphabet used in TMC is the same one used in TWW, and not the one used in OoT or the one used in TP.
and
2) TMC also connects to FS and FSA, which, in my timeline, follow TWW in the AT.



Yes, i agree with you here. BTW, remember that Hyrule had been unified during the Fierce Wars roughly 10 years before the events of OoT. TMc couldn't have happened between the formation of Hyrule and OoT unless there were 2 heroes (Links) living at the same time.



This is wrong. LttP has also been confirmed to come in the AT. That confirmation came when the developers said that the adult events of OoT are the backstory of LttP.



Not a theory per se, but it could be possible (even though I doubt it is).

Also, the main piece of evidence for LoZ/AoL to follow the AT is not the large ocean, but the fact that the towns in AoL had the same names of the Sages from OoT (the Sages were only awakened in the adult part of the game).



Yup, confirmed.



I agree about FSA being a prequel to every game that has the trident. But your reasoning for putting it in the CT is weak.

Please notice that Hyrule is an island in FSA. That alone shows intent for it to come in the AT.

Also, I suggest that you read Erimgard's article in ZI about the TP:FSA connections.

http://www.zeldainformer.com/2009/03/the-building-blocks-of-twiligh.php#more

If the Mirrors are the same, the two games cannot possibly come in the same timeline. The Mirror was destroyed in the end of TP, while it is still functional in FSA.

My theory on this is that, before the split, the dark tribe (or interlopers) tried to invade hyrule and some of them were banned to the Twilight Realm. Some stayed and later became the Zuna. That way the mirror could exist in both TP and FSA without the two games coming in the same timeline.



The MS location is all that really helps placing it in the CT. But, then, you are ignoring the fact that OoT is the Imprisoning War. For everything else you said here, I agree.



Oh, OoX can't come between LttP and LA. I agree that OoX is a sequel to LttP (Ganon dead, trident there), but it can't be the same Link. When you meet Zelda in OoX, she asks if you are Link, implying that she they are not acqauintances.



The boat is not conclusive evidence, considering the heroes from LttP and OoX are not the same. Also, please notice that Link doesn't have the triforce mark in his hand in either LttP or LA, but has it in OoX. They are clearly different heroes.

On the triforce, I agree with you. But, remember where the triforce is before LoZ? It is fully at the castle. So the king hides the ToC in AoL backstory, Ganon steals the ToP in LoZ backstory and Zelda splits the ToW in the same backstory. Doesn't that seems to imply a LttP---LoZ/AoL relation?



This is what I call the Obvious Sequels Rule. The only obvious sequels that exist are those that directly connect one game to the other, featuring the same hero, like
LoZ/AoL
LttP/LA
OoT/MM
OoS/OoA
TWW/PH
FS/FSA
TMC/{the 4th FS game that was never produced}
TP/{future game}

The idea is that the devs make all games thinking about only one sequel featuring the same hero. They do that in order not to create complicated storylines involving the same characters.

LttP-OoX/LA would have 3 games featuring the same hero, while LttP/LA-OoX would have 4 games like that.

The only possible way to have LttP, LA and OoX together without breaking the OSR would be by having it like LttP/LA-OoX (which means 'LttP/LA-OoS/OoA' or 'LttP/LA-OoA/OoS').



Blue Ganon dies in 3 (well, actually 4, if you count OoA and OoS separately) games: LoZ, LttP and OoX.

Ganondorf dies in 2 games: TWW and TP.

Considering the ganon that comes back in Oox is Blue Ganon and has the trident, OoX Ganon BS probably refers to LttP.



Proof?



So, when is Ganon sealed in the SR in the SEAL War of FSA??



Again, the mirror was destroyed at the end of TP.



I think what he meant was that the trident could have been created before the split and, therefor, exist in both timelines...




Actually, the official art depicts peoplein TMC the same way as the artforms of FS, FSA, TWW and PH. I still think those games were supposed to be together...



The MS ended set in a stone in TWW, and it was the same way in LttP.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/9412/swordfm3.jpg

If we consider that deflooding happened, the sword+stone could have just risen from under the sea.



Yes, that's a theory. But I don't support it because, in my timeline, LttP comes before OoX.

There is a very common timeline theory from ZeldaInformer (ZI) that we call Leximgard-Skyral, that uses that explanation for how the sword came from the bottom of the sea to the woods in LttP. Leximgard-Skyral goes like this:
...../-TWW/PH-LoZ/AoL-OoX-TMC-FS/FSA-LttP/LA
OoT
.....\MM-TP

Dang it man, don't do that. I have yet to know how to split my quotes like that.

1. No problems here.

2. Mind you, Koume and Kotake have the TWW language on their headbands in OOT. Besides TMc doesn't have any Hylian in it.

3. Yes i kinda agree.

4. The developers HAVE BEEN WRONG BEFORE! We cannot trust them for everything. Remember this, that Miyamoto denied a split timeline and Anouma approved it. Unless it is real concrete evidence that is ingame, it's not very plausible.

5. It proves it to be on the Adult timeline because of that ocean and the lack of a human Ganondorf. The towns are connectors and I'll admit that.

6. Hyrule isn't an island per say. If you check the size of every map that you travel and understand the land mass. You'll see that Hyrule is fit for the size of a continent.
The Mirror of Twilight was destroyed and I'll say that, however there were fragments left. Although not as large as the fragments left by Zant, should anyone have the determination.
The Zuna are people who have no backstory what so ever. How can we possibly connect anyone to them? They only share appearances with Agahnim and nothing more.
Also how could they stay when the ancient ones (light spirits) intended to make sure none of them get away. Why would the light spirits leave any of th Dark Tribe in the world of the light?

7. You seal Ganon in the Master Sword, the events of FSA mirror Alttp greatly. Even Miyamoto confirmed that FSA was "originally built" as the Seal War at it's pure but then seemingly the whole idea of adding the Four Sword made it complicated to them it seems and made it more seem more like an independent story. (I wish I had a link. Your my guest to go search for it.)

8.If what you say is true, then there would be two Link's in existence. That has never happened before once much like how you say that Link can never have more than two adventures.
Either path we follow it's bound to break the normal tradition.

9. Do you have proof that they are not the same? He may not have it in Alttp, but I must see artwork of LA that shows his left hand because it was never stated that he did or didn't have it.
I shall admit, it is said that he stole it but that could be in some debate.
LOZ/Aol originally had a relation with Alttp in Miyamoto's first timeline. OOT>Alttp> LOZ>AoL

10. Yea I really believe that he has to be related to Alttp.

11. I don't know why I said that.

12. He was sealed in the Four Sword which we see in the Palace of the Four Sword/ Pyramid of Power in the GBA remake.

13. I have slowly started to believe that the Mirror in Four Swords may be different from the Mirror of Twilight and except for taking you to the Twilight Realm, it takes you to the Dark World which had already been tainted somehow.

14. Do you have any proof?

15. Art is not canon material unless the art actually proves something important. The WW style had proven to become quite popular in Japan and nintendo and capcom obviously wanted to milk the style.
Art is only canon when it depicts important things. Such as the many different appearances of the Master Sword.

16. A deflooding is impossible if what the Deku Tree said holds true. He said that the trees would bring land and the sea would be swallowed up.

Might I also remind you that the Master Sword design is different from the WW design.

[Smertios]

0. Dang it man, don't do that. I have yet to know how to split my quotes like that.

1. No problems here.

2. Mind you, Koume and Kotake have the TWW language on their headbands in OOT. Besides TMc doesn't have any Hylian in it.

3. Yes i kinda agree.

4. The developers HAVE BEEN WRONG BEFORE! We cannot trust them for everything. Remember this, that Miyamoto denied a split timeline and Anouma approved it. Unless it is real concrete evidence that is ingame, it's not very plausible.

5. It proves it to be on the Adult timeline because of that ocean and the lack of a human Ganondorf. The towns are connectors and I'll admit that.

6.1. Hyrule isn't an island per say. If you check the size of every map that you travel and understand the land mass. You'll see that Hyrule is fit for the size of a continent.

6.2. The Mirror of Twilight was destroyed and I'll say that, however there were fragments left. Although not as large as the fragments left by Zant, should anyone have the determination.

6.3. The Zuna are people who have no backstory what so ever. How can we possibly connect anyone to them? They only share appearances with Agahnim and nothing more.

6.4. Also how could they stay when the ancient ones (light spirits) intended to make sure none of them get away. Why would the light spirits leave any of th Dark Tribe in the world of the light?

7. You seal Ganon in the Master Sword, the events of FSA mirror Alttp greatly. Even Miyamoto confirmed that FSA was "originally built" as the Seal War at it's pure but then seemingly the whole idea of adding the Four Sword made it complicated to them it seems and made it more seem more like an independent story. (I wish I had a link. Your my guest to go search for it.)

8.If what you say is true, then there would be two Link's in existence. That has never happened before once much like how you say that Link can never have more than two adventures.
Either path we follow it's bound to break the normal tradition.

9.1. Do you have proof that they are not the same? He may not have it in Alttp, but I must see artwork of LA that shows his left hand because it was never stated that he did or didn't have it.

9.2. I shall admit, it is said that he stole it but that could be in some debate.
LOZ/Aol originally had a relation with Alttp in Miyamoto's first timeline. OOT>Alttp> LOZ>AoL

10. Yea I really believe that he has to be related to Alttp.

11. I don't know why I said that.

12. He was sealed in the Four Sword which we see in the Palace of the Four Sword/ Pyramid of Power in the GBA remake.

13. I have slowly started to believe that the Mirror in Four Swords may be different from the Mirror of Twilight and except for taking you to the Twilight Realm, it takes you to the Dark World which had already been tainted somehow.

14. Do you have any proof?

15. Art is not canon material unless the art actually proves something important. The WW style had proven to become quite popular in Japan and nintendo and capcom obviously wanted to milk the style.
Art is only canon when it depicts important things. Such as the many different appearances of the Master Sword.

16. A deflooding is impossible if what the Deku Tree said holds true. He said that the trees would bring land and the sea would be swallowed up.

17. Might I also remind you that the Master Sword design is different from the WW design.

0. Ok, I'll try to reply using numbers like this

1. No problems with what?

2. LOL. Go to the Library in TMC. All books are written in TWW Hylian, meaning it is the dominant writing system used during that game period. One of the books even says "Triumph Forks"...
As for the alphabet existing in OoT, it was definitely not the dominant writing system, even though it could have existed for that long. TWW implies that they changed the writing system because of the flood.

3. You agree with what?

4. You are wrong. Miyamoto never denied the split timeline. Back in 2002 he even said that TWW followed the adult ending of OoT. And that was way before Aonuma confirmed it in 2006.

5. The same reason for FSA to come in the AT.

6.1. Doesn't matter. It is still surrounded by water, and it is not like that in either OoT or LttP. Also, there are only a few human settlements in FSA Hyrule, implying it is not a continent (like the two continents in AoL), but an island.

6.2. TP states that fragments are only left when someone who is not the true leader of the twili tries to destroy the mirror. Considering Midna was the true leader of the twili, she destroyed it completely.

7. You mean the Four Sword, right? The Four Sword is not the Master Sword! The only time the MS is used to seal Ganon in the SR is in OoT.
Miyamoto never ever confirmed that, I don't know where that is coming from.

8. Explain what you mean, because, in my timeline, there aren't two links coexisting at any point...

9.1. http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4680/laintro.png
That's [u]in-game[/i]

9.2. It still makes sense without having to retcon it like you assume.

10. Who?

11. Said what?

12. Ganon was sealed in the Sacred Realm in the Imprisoning War, that doesn't happen in FSA. If I were you, I'd say that the IW happens after FSA, with the Sages (and the maidens from FSA are not sages either) sealing the 4S in the SR...

13. So you are saying that 2 mirrors that work about the same way are actually different mirrors? I see no reason to why that would be...

14. Proof for what?

15. Not true, the MS has been depiced differently in LttP and OoT, yet it was supposed to be the same. Art shouldn't be taken as evidence at all. But when we gather games that have similar artforms together, it forms a very good timeline:
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8594/coisahy0.jpg
(the image is too big :P)

16. Exactly. That's what I call 'deflooding'. It reverses the process of the flood. The flood (caused by the goddesses) made land "become" water, while deflooding (caused by trees) made water "become" land. The means they used to do that is debatable, but it is a fact that they have such power.
If the trees can swallow up water or pull the soil up, the MS will eventually come back to surfice...

17. Which is different from the LttP design, which is different from the TP design. Yet all of those are supposed to be the same 'Blade of Evil's Bane'...

[ChargewithSword]

0. Ok, I'll try to reply using numbers like this

1. No problems with what?

2. LOL. Go to the Library in TMC. All books are written in TWW Hylian, meaning it is the dominant writing system used during that game period. One of the books even says "Triumph Forks"...
As for the alphabet existing in OoT, it was definitely not the dominant writing system, even though it could have existed for that long. TWW implies that they changed the writing system because of the flood.

3. You agree with what?

4. You are wrong. Miyamoto never denied the split timeline. Back in 2002 he even said that TWW followed the adult ending of OoT. And that was way before Aonuma confirmed it in 2006.

5. The same reason for FSA to come in the AT.

6.1. Doesn't matter. It is still surrounded by water, and it is not like that in either OoT or LttP. Also, there are only a few human settlements in FSA Hyrule, implying it is not a continent (like the two continents in AoL), but an island.

6.2. TP states that fragments are only left when someone who is not the true leader of the twili tries to destroy the mirror. Considering Midna was the true leader of the twili, she destroyed it completely.

7. You mean the Four Sword, right? The Four Sword is not the Master Sword! The only time the MS is used to seal Ganon in the SR is in OoT.
Miyamoto never ever confirmed that, I don't know where that is coming from.

8. Explain what you mean, because, in my timeline, there aren't two links coexisting at any point...

9.1. http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4680/laintro.png
That's [u]in-game[/i]

9.2. It still makes sense without having to retcon it like you assume.

10. Who?

11. Said what?

12. Ganon was sealed in the Sacred Realm in the Imprisoning War, that doesn't happen in FSA. If I were you, I'd say that the IW happens after FSA, with the Sages (and the maidens from FSA are not sages either) sealing the 4S in the SR...

13. So you are saying that 2 mirrors that work about the same way are actually different mirrors? I see no reason to why that would be...

14. Proof for what?

15. Not true, the MS has been depiced differently in LttP and OoT, yet it was supposed to be the same. Art shouldn't be taken as evidence at all. But when we gather games that have similar artforms together, it forms a very good timeline:
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8594/coisahy0.jpg
(the image is too big :P)

16. Exactly. That's what I call 'deflooding'. It reverses the process of the flood. The flood (caused by the goddesses) made land "become" water, while deflooding (caused by trees) made water "become" land. The means they used to do that is debatable, but it is a fact that they have such power.
If the trees can swallow up water or pull the soil up, the MS will eventually come back to surfice...

17. Which is different from the LttP design, which is different from the TP design. Yet all of those are supposed to be the same 'Blade of Evil's Bane'...

2. I suppose I can believe that. I believe that the WW writing was probably in development perhaps. All languages change in order to make more sense.

4. He did deny it, but I don't have the link to the old quote. But I need a link of yours or else it's just like mine.

5. Ah but note how the sages don't seem to be referenced in FSA. As a matter of fact, they have been ultimatly replaced with new sages who don't have any links with the old ones.

6.1 You must check the size of every Hyrule we have visited and noticed how small they are compared to FSA's. For all we know there was an ocean beyond those mountains. Also, are you impling when we were in tribes our continents weren't continents?
Another thing I must note, if the Hyrule in FSA is truly the one we see in the AT then where is Catalia? That is LOZ Link's homeland. If Hyrule is an island persay then that would mean that Catalia doesn't exist.

6.2 Perhaps I'll agree with that.

7. Did you see the ending of FSA? Zelda clearly stated that they were sealing Ganon into the Four Sword. The Four Sword was found in the dark world. They probably had sealed him in the sacred realm somewhere out of game.

8. You say that Alttp link and OOX Link are different. However, then if OOX happened while LA was occuring then that would mean that two Link's were in existance. Now unless your timeline states differently, that would mean that two Links were present in the world.

12. They call themselves maidens but does that mean Saria is not a sage? Does that mean that Ruto isn't a sage? They are basically sages but named differently.

13. Then you will prove me correct that they are the same mirror. They work the same and lead to different or the same place.
Why would a mirror exist to a Dark World that shouldn't exist? The Dark World was purified at the end of WW with the death of Ganondorf. (If it was purified by his death in Alttp then it must be the same for here.)

14. Proof that there are two tridents.

15. True, if we followed art style it would probably make this easiers.

16. Deflooding would not bring a dark tower above to the ground. In fact deflooding would probably make the tower go underground.

17. How do we know that they are the same blade of evil's bane? It never was stated that more or one blades was made at the time.
However if they are the same then their location should also be in question, in WW it was left on Ganon's skull and in TP it was left in a forest. In the adult timeline look at LOZ and Aol, there was no Master Sword there. There was no master sword needed to defeat Ganon, yet in Alttp there was a Master Sword in the forest.

[sign of table]

16. Exactly. That's what I call 'deflooding'. It reverses the process of the flood. The flood (caused by the goddesses) made land "become" water, while deflooding (caused by trees) made water "become" land. The means they used to do that is debatable, but it is a fact that they have such power.
If the trees can swallow up water or pull the soil up, the MS will eventually come back to surfice... Yeah, but the Deku Tree said that forests had the power to create new land. Land that's being pulled back up isn't new land; it's old land.

So why does Ganondorf become a perfectly shaped pedestal?

Oh and the Leximgard-Skyral timeline doesn't have an explanation for the MS, either. The quote being referred to the zora actually says that his ancestors were GIVEN the blade from a hero.

[Smertios]

2. I suppose I can believe that. I believe that the WW writing was probably in development perhaps. All languages change in order to make more sense.

2) It is not in development in TMC though. It is the dominant writing system. If TMC comes before OoT, they would have changed the alphabet twice...


4. He did deny it, but I don't have the link to the old quote. But I need a link of yours or else it's just like mine.

4) I'll look for it later today. I have it somewhere...


5. Ah but note how the sages don't seem to be referenced in FSA. As a matter of fact, they have been ultimatly replaced with new sages who don't have any links with the old ones.

5) Exactly my point. There are no Sages at all mentioned in FSA, meaning that game is not the IW.


6.1 You must check the size of every Hyrule we have visited and noticed how small they are compared to FSA's. For all we know there was an ocean beyond those mountains. Also, are you impling when we were in tribes our continents weren't continents?

6.1.1) I did. Hyrule in TP is clearly larger than Hyrule in FSA. And it is not bordered by any ocean. The official in-game map has no seas and if you go all the way to the top of Snowpeak, you'll see mountain all the way into the horizon...


Another thing I must note, if the Hyrule in FSA is truly the one we see in the AT then where is Catalia? That is LOZ Link's homeland. If Hyrule is an island persay then that would mean that Catalia doesn't exist.

6.1.2) A: Land is growing as proven by the Great Deku Tree's quote from TWW

B: Calatia is only mentioned in Valiant comics, which is not canon material.


7. Did you see the ending of FSA? Zelda clearly stated that they were sealing Ganon into the Four Sword. The Four Sword was found in the dark world. They probably had sealed him in the sacred realm somewhere out of game.

7) Yup, and LttP states that Ganon had been sealed directly in the SR after the IW. I'm not disagreeing that the 4S eventually went into the SR, i'm just disagreeing with you on which game is the IW. IMO, FSA doesn't match the criteria to be the IW mentioned in LttP.


8. You say that Alttp link and OOX Link are different. However, then if OOX happened while LA was occuring then that would mean that two Link's were in existance. Now unless your timeline states differently, that would mean that two Links were present in the world.

8)
LOL
I never said that. This is my timeline:
...../-TWW/PH-TMC-FS/FSA-LttP/LA-OoX-LoZ/AoL
OoT
.....\MM-TP

Link from LttP/LA would have been dead by the time OoX happened...


12. They call themselves maidens but does that mean Saria is not a sage? Does that mean that Ruto isn't a sage? They are basically sages but named differently.

12) The maidens from FSA were never called Sages. Why not calling them sages, if they wanted it to be the IW so much? LttP refers to them as sages after all...


13. Then you will prove me correct that they are the same mirror. They work the same and lead to different or the same place.
Why would a mirror exist to a Dark World that shouldn't exist? The Dark World was purified at the end of WW with the death of Ganondorf. (If it was purified by his death in Alttp then it must be the same for here.)

13) The DW stage in FSA is just a corrupted part of Hyrule, pretty much the same way the Twilight Curtain is over Hyrule in TP...


14. Proof that there are two tridents.

14) I never said that there are 2 tridents. IMO, there is only one trident in FSA, LttP and OoX...


15. True, if we followed art style it would probably make this easiers.

15) Yup, but apparently i'm the only one who does that :P


16. Deflooding would not bring a dark tower above to the ground. In fact deflooding would probably make the tower go underground.

16) i don't get it. Deflooding would make the water level drop, meaning that what was in the bottom of the ocean would rise to the surfice...


17.1. How do we know that they are the same blade of evil's bane? It never was stated that more or one blades was made at the time.

17.1) It heavily implies that the MS from OoT and LttP is the same. The same for OoT and TWW, and the same for OoT and TP.


17.2.However if they are the same then their location should also be in question, in WW it was left on Ganon's skull and in TP it was left in a forest. In the adult timeline look at LOZ and Aol, there was no Master Sword there. There was no master sword needed to defeat Ganon, yet in Alttp there was a Master Sword in the forest.

17.2)
It was not in ganon's skull in TWW. Remember that Ganon became solid stone? It was set in stone the same way it was in LttP.

The MS alone is not good enough to prove in which timeline LttP comes.


Yeah, but the Deku Tree said that forests had the power to create new land. Land that's being pulled back up isn't new land; it's old land.

It is new land in the sense that it still had to be colonized by intelligent settlers. Or that the current inhabitants didn't know it. Like when we say that Cristopher Columbus found New Land by traveling to the West.


So why does Ganondorf become a perfectly shaped pedestal?

Because someone found the legendary MS and decided that it should be placed in a pedestal, maybe??

[ChargewithSword]

2) It is not in development in TMC though. It is the dominant writing system. If TMC comes before OoT, they would have changed the alphabet twice...



4) I'll look for it later today. I have it somewhere...



5) Exactly my point. There are no Sages at all mentioned in FSA, meaning that game is not the IW.



6.1.1) I did. Hyrule in TP is clearly larger than Hyrule in FSA. And it is not bordered by any ocean. The official in-game map has no seas and if you go all the way to the top of Snowpeak, you'll see mountain all the way into the horizon...



6.1.2) A: Land is growing as proven by the Great Deku Tree's quote from TWW

B: Calatia is only mentioned in Valiant comics, which is not canon material.



7) Yup, and LttP states that Ganon had been sealed directly in the SR after the IW. I'm not disagreeing that the 4S eventually went into the SR, i'm just disagreeing with you on which game is the IW. IMO, FSA doesn't match the criteria to be the IW mentioned in LttP.



8)
LOL
I never said that. This is my timeline:
...../-TWW/PH-TMC-FS/FSA-LttP/LA-OoX-LoZ/AoL
OoT
.....\MM-TP

Link from LttP/LA would have been dead by the time OoX happened...



12) The maidens from FSA were never called Sages. Why not calling them sages, if they wanted it to be the IW so much? LttP refers to them as sages after all...



13) The DW stage in FSA is just a corrupted part of Hyrule, pretty much the same way the Twilight Curtain is over Hyrule in TP...



14) I never said that there are 2 tridents. IMO, there is only one trident in FSA, LttP and OoX...



15) Yup, but apparently i'm the only one who does that :P



16) i don't get it. Deflooding would make the water level drop, meaning that what was in the bottom of the ocean would rise to the surfice...



17.1) It heavily implies that the MS from OoT and LttP is the same. The same for OoT and TWW, and the same for OoT and TP.



17.2)
It was not in ganon's skull in TWW. Remember that Ganon became solid stone? It was set in stone the same way it was in LttP.

The MS alone is not good enough to prove in which timeline LttP comes.



It is new land in the sense that it still had to be colonized by intelligent settlers. Or that the current inhabitants didn't know it. Like when we say that Cristopher Columbus found New Land by traveling to the West.



Because someone found the legendary MS and decided that it should be placed in a pedestal, maybe??

5. Then how about this, the sages we called wise men once. But then they were changed into sages for the GBA release, another thing is that history is lost in time.
WW pointed that fact out. For all we know, that the details of the war have become fadey.

6. Shrink FSA's map down and add all the areas of the game which were considerably big. Connect every single area and they become bigger than TPs map.
And the in game map is shaped like a tree. There is nothing but mist covering your veiw. Plus no one's vision can reach as far at the ocean when there are mountains in the way.

6.1.2. Land is made new, he says that the forests make new land. He intends to cover old Hyrule in land.
Catalia is a real place according to this map. Excuse the size.

http://www.zeldacapital.com/HyruleMap/map%20of%20hyrule.jpg

7. Explain the Palace of the Four Sword being in Alttp and how FSA shows Ganon being imprisoned in it. I will not accept the answer "It's just an addition."

8. ..... yea I suppose it could go like that when you think of it. No I am not agreeing with the entire time line or the placement of the games I put on the child time line.
I am agreeeing with Alttp/LA- OOX placement.

12. Were they ever called Maidens in the Japanese versions?

13. Actually the stages have some differences in them that make them different. Objects are placed differently and often there shall be obstacles in your way.

16. Over the years, things end up going under ground. Cities are built upon old cities and mountains above old mountains.

17. Where does it heavily implies this?

18. It was his skull and if removed from his skull we don't know what will happen. A small resemblance cannot mean much.

[Smertios]

5. Then how about this, the sages we called wise men once. But then they were changed into sages for the GBA release, another thing is that history is lost in time.

5.1. Well, in LttP they differentiate between Sages and Maidens. It is clearly that they were refering to the maidens in FSA the same way they were in LttP. They were not sages...

And the change only occured in the english version. 'Sage' and 'Wise Man' are actually sinonyms. The same word was used in the japanese...


WW pointed that fact out. For all we know, that the details of the war have become fadey.

5.2. Then how do you explain the fact that there are 6 sages (and this is the word used) buried in the graveyard in Cobble Kingdom in PH?

Also, the 'Book of Mudora' rings any bell?


6. Shrink FSA's map down and add all the areas of the game which were considerably big. Connect every single area and they become bigger than TPs map.

6.1. No they don't. The FSA map is about the same size as LttP's, which is smaller than TP's.

BTW, if you do that with the LA map you'll notice that it is a bigger area than the OoA one. Yet we all know that Koholint was supposed to be only one tiny island...


And the in game map is shaped like a tree. There is nothing but mist covering your veiw. Plus no one's vision can reach as far at the ocean when there are mountains in the way.

6.2. We can see very far though, further than the FSA map...


6.1.2. Land is made new, he says that the forests make new land. He intends to cover old Hyrule in land.

6.3. That doesn't make much sense. How on earth would trees create soil particles??


Catalia is a real place according to this map. Excuse the size.

http://www.zeldacapital.com/HyruleMap/map%20of%20hyrule.jpg

6.4.
lol
That's a fan-made map

Calatia is only mentioned in the Valiant comic books:
http://zeldawiki.org/Calatia


7. Explain the Palace of the Four Sword being in Alttp and how FSA shows Ganon being imprisoned in it. I will not accept the answer "It's just an addition."

7. It isn't. The 4S was sent to the SR after FSA. That's how Ganon ended up there. OoT is still the IW though, because it is the only game that matches the criteria to be it.


8. ..... yea I suppose it could go like that when you think of it. No I am not agreeing with the entire time line or the placement of the games I put on the child time line.
I am agreeeing with Alttp/LA- OOX placement.

8. That's a start :P
lol


12. Were they ever called Maidens in the Japanese versions?

12. Yes, and a fun-fact: the oracles from OoX were also called Maidens in the original japanese...


13. Actually the stages have some differences in them that make them different. Objects are placed differently and often there shall be obstacles in your way.

13. My point is that the DW from FSA looks more like the twilight covered Hyrule from TP than the DW from LttP.


16. Over the years, things end up going under ground. Cities are built upon old cities and mountains above old mountains.

16. Then an archeological excavation could have easily found stuff...
Still, I don't see how that could have happened...


17. Where does it heavily implies this?

17. In the game text...


18. It was his skull and if removed from his skull we don't know what will happen. A small resemblance cannot mean much.

Aonuma confirmed that Ganon is completely dead after TWW! So removing the sword wouldn't bring him back. Let me go look for the quotes.

[ChargewithSword]

5.1. Well, in LttP they differentiate between Sages and Maidens. It is clearly that they were refering to the maidens in FSA the same way they were in LttP. They were not sages...

And the change only occured in the english version. 'Sage' and 'Wise Man' are actually sinonyms. The same word was used in the japanese...



5.2. Then how do you explain the fact that there are 6 sages (and this is the word used) buried in the graveyard in Cobble Kingdom in PH?

Also, the 'Book of Mudora' rings any bell?



6.1. No they don't. The FSA map is about the same size as LttP's, which is smaller than TP's.

BTW, if you do that with the LA map you'll notice that it is a bigger area than the OoA one. Yet we all know that Koholint was supposed to be only one tiny island...



6.2. We can see very far though, further than the FSA map...



6.3. That doesn't make much sense. How on earth would trees create soil particles??



6.4.
lol
That's a fan-made map

Calatia is only mentioned in the Valiant comic books:
http://zeldawiki.org/Calatia



7. It isn't. The 4S was sent to the SR after FSA. That's how Ganon ended up there. OoT is still the IW though, because it is the only game that matches the criteria to be it.



8. That's a start :P
lol



12. Yes, and a fun-fact: the oracles from OoX were also called Maidens in the original japanese...



13. My point is that the DW from FSA looks more like the twilight covered Hyrule from TP than the DW from LttP.



16. Then an archeological excavation could have easily found stuff...
Still, I don't see how that could have happened...



17. In the game text...



Aonuma confirmed that Ganon is completely dead after TWW! So removing the sword wouldn't bring him back. Let me go look for the quotes.

5.2 What is the cobble kingdom now? It's a living graveyard that's what it is. It must be centuries old to have gotten in it's state.
The Book of Mudora as a translator yes.

6.1 I combined those parts and they are larger than any of the areas in LA and OOA.

6.2 Well I couldn't even when I used the scope. The rest of my vision had been clouded by mist. What about the other directions? Can you see from that distance? Cause I could not.

6.3 Tell that to the talking tree with magical tree children who sprouts trees that have faces.

6.4 Lol no it isn't
My cousin got that same map from Nintendo way back when.

7 You have just made a huge contradiction. If the seal war was OOT and Ganon was sealed in FSA and is the same Ganon from Alttp how is that possible. And if FSa wasn't the seal war, then why would it even need to be mentioned in Alttp.

8. Don't get your hopes up. I am still firmed in the thoughts that it fits the child timeline. Although I accept many things I can't accept your placements in the AT. Although the Alttp/LA-OOX thing makes a lot of sense.

13. The DW from Alttp was the same thing except it had land differences much like the DW from FSA.

16. It just does. I don't know how this stuff gets under the soil but it does. Still it is possible, the Temple of Seasons fell underground (even though it was forced by magic.)

17. I have no memory of this, I need quotes.

18. Perhaps, but his head does not mean anything. So it resembles the pedestal in Alttp and you can't deny that the area in TP resembles the Alttp one even more. It even has a forest guarding it.

[Smertios]

Renumbered


5.2 What is the cobble kingdom now? It's a living graveyard that's what it is. It must be centuries old to have gotten in it's state.

1. My point is that the name 'Sages' survived the flood. You said the history had been lost.


The Book of Mudora as a translator yes.

2. The Book of Mudora is said to have the legends of Hyrule written in it too...


6.1 I combined those parts and they are larger than any of the areas in LA and OOA.

3. You didn't get my point. I meant that LA map is bigger than OoA's if we combine all in-game areas. Yet Koholnt was supposed to be only a small island, and Labrynna a large kingdom...


6.2 Well I couldn't even when I used the scope. The rest of my vision had been clouded by mist. What about the other directions? Can you see from that distance? Cause I could not.

4. The FSA map is covered by water from all sides. BTW, where is Snowpeak in FSA Hyrule?


6.3 Tell that to the talking tree with magical tree children who sprouts trees that have faces.

5. You didn't get it. I doubt the devs were thinking about producing soil when they added that GDT line. It makes more sense for them to be thinking about deflooding...


6.4 Lol no it isn't
My cousin got that same map from Nintendo way back when.

6. Then I suppose it is from the comic books. I read the LoZ backstory several times and it doesn't mention Calatia, IIRC...

The only place I have ever seen that name in is the Valiant comic book.

Also, it looks a lot like a fan map to me. You have a way to confirm it is from Nintendo?


7 You have just made a huge contradiction. If the seal war was OOT and Ganon was sealed in FSA and is the same Ganon from Alttp how is that possible. And if FSa wasn't the seal war, then why would it even need to be mentioned in Alttp.

7. Easy. The LttP BS doesn't say that particular Ganon had been sealed during the SW. It just says that Ganon had been sealed theer during the war. He could easily have escaped and got there again. I don't see the contradiction there.

They needed a way to connect OoT (the SW) back to LttP after they made TWW. That's where FSA fits. It is a bridge between TWW and LttP so that LttP can work...


8. Don't get your hopes up. I am still firmed in the thoughts that it fits the child timeline. Although I accept many things I can't accept your placements in the AT. Although the Alttp/LA-OOX thing makes a lot of sense.

8. Well, don't you think the presence of the Ocean in FSA was meant to indicate something? I mean, even if it is a continent, they could have depicted it like OoT's Hyrule, if they really wanted to make it a CT game. Yet they preferred to make it surrounded by water. And that was after TWW had been released...


13. The DW from Alttp was the same thing except it had land differences much like the DW from FSA.

9. There are 2 DW's in FSA. One looks a lot like the DW from LttP. The other looks a lot like the Twilight Curtain from TP...


16. It just does. I don't know how this stuff gets under the soil but it does. Still it is possible, the Temple of Seasons fell underground (even though it was forced by magic.)

10. I forgot what we were discussing here. What was it? :hmm:


17. I have no memory of this, I need quotes.

11. i'll look at the text dump tomorrow. I'm too tired to do it now...


18. Perhaps, but his head does not mean anything. So it resembles the pedestal in Alttp and you can't deny that the area in TP resembles the Alttp one even more. It even has a forest guarding it.

12. I agree, but that would go against the idea that OoT is the SW, which, for me, is inviolable...

[ChargewithSword]

Ok stop stop stop. Listen, we've each made good points in our discussions and we have kept this argument going long and hard. However we are discussing to many random things, sooner or later we are going to get confused. Not to mention that neither of us getting anywhere. I suggest that we call it a draw for now and discuss this another time. I can only take one arguement at a time.